Greek Influenced Mexica?
- Thread starter Nianque
- Start date
In a timeline when Byzantium were more succesful? The problem being you need a byzantium doing well enough to spend resources pushing west but badly enough that it's cut off from the asian trade and so needs to go west.
That's hard to imagine. A country with influence in the middle east is more likely to go east than west (see the ottoman age of exploration which was aimed at domination of the indian ocean and was indifferent to the atlantic.)
And a greek based country cut off from the middle east is unlikely to be able to project power into the atlantic. You essentially need a byzantine empire whch holds spain but not Egypt. Which is kind of an ask given their respective history in those areas.
Maybe if the sassanids gain control of arabia and egypt and the byzantines hold onto Italy, you could see justinians foothold in hispania growing into something more and yet the byzantines still being cut off from the asian trade and so have the motives to go west. It's a stretch though, they'd need to develop ships of a kind they never really needed in otl, where they sailed the med rather the atlantic.
That's hard to imagine. A country with influence in the middle east is more likely to go east than west (see the ottoman age of exploration which was aimed at domination of the indian ocean and was indifferent to the atlantic.)
And a greek based country cut off from the middle east is unlikely to be able to project power into the atlantic. You essentially need a byzantine empire whch holds spain but not Egypt. Which is kind of an ask given their respective history in those areas.
Maybe if the sassanids gain control of arabia and egypt and the byzantines hold onto Italy, you could see justinians foothold in hispania growing into something more and yet the byzantines still being cut off from the asian trade and so have the motives to go west. It's a stretch though, they'd need to develop ships of a kind they never really needed in otl, where they sailed the med rather the atlantic.
Maybe if Alexander didn't dye so soon and let him conquer more of Western Europe? That way a Diadochy or Greek successor state could discover and/or influence the Americas. Clearly without the fall of Byzanticum thanks to the Turks there would be no need for a sea route towards India I think (at least not for the Byzantine Empire the far eastern end of the silk road in Europe).
Wouldn't be the Aztecs though unless a Greek successor state could somehow continue to exist for about 1500 years and only then get around to finding Mexico.
Well, it'd be very hard, nigh impossible. Perhaps if you can keep the Byzantines powerful and alive until about the 1500s. Which is possible with an early enough POD. Then let them continue to have a strong foothold in the South of Italy, and by the 1300s at least maybe give them parts of Spain. They don't need to be the first to discover the New World nor do they need to be the main colonizers. Say, Castile and Portugal are independent and only Aragon and at least half of Italy is in Roman hands. One of the Iberian Nations sends out Columbus and he finds Hispanola, in 1492, or earlier. By 1500 the Roman's might send someone out on their own, or perhaps they have a Union with the Crown of Castile?
Perhaps a successful Roman Imperial rebirth courtesy of the Byzantines, but the Gulf of Aden is blocked off. Sure they can trade with the Arabs, but the powerful Yemenite state and it's East African trading empire is growing eastward. The Byzantines Romans want the spices of India, but the Yemenites are the worlds premier naval power at this point. One man claims to have visions from God that glory will be found westward, the Emperor funds this and instead he finds a new land...
(POD around 400-600 AD current year at least 1200)
They would still be Mesoamericans though.
(POD around 400-600 AD current year at least 1200)
They would still be Mesoamericans though.
Alright so Justinian takes Egypt, Sicily, Africa, and part of Spain and decides to solidify the Empire instead of expand further. With this he's able to fortify the eastern border and get away with not paying tribute to Persia. Subsequent rulers are able to further fortify the east, and it goes until 630 without a major Byzantine/Persian war breaking out, allowing both empires to safely defend themselves against the new Muslim invaders. Things continue in this vein, as new Emperors manage to keep the empire more or less intact and eventually one of them conquers/vassalizes the Iberian peninsula in time for the 1300s to roll around. Then the Muslims and Persians cut off trade going east and some guy gets the bright idea to try and find another route to the East. An expedition sets out West and the eventually land in Mesoamerica just as the Aztec Empire is starting to take form.
Then cultural exchange happens and Mexica stabilizes.
Any problems with this?
Then cultural exchange happens and Mexica stabilizes.
Any problems with this?
For the Byzantines, you need to look at Provinces.
Assuming the Byzantines do well, and conquer places line North Africa and Spain, then besides exploration for explorations sake, there is a genuine opportunity. These provinces, and those like Gaul, or Britannia would all benefit themselves if they could import goods from Asia rather than via Egypt, both providing them the wealth from the trade, and reducing the money that they send to the eastern part of the Empire.
Their explorations could works as in OTL - reasonable open water ships designed for Atlantic use, travel westwards - and find land. (You could tie this into the Vikings)
However, the reaction to the discovery could well be different. No trade route means that the western provinces aren't going to instantly benefit (although a Hispania that continues the attempt and goes south? Yes) but the Roman Empire has an incentive to discern if there is anyone to trade with out West. They spend a fortune in gold on eastern trade, if they can find another trade partner to buy their goods in exchange for gold, then this can address their economic issues. - and who is happy to do that? The Mexica. Roman armaments and equipment for Mexican gold. Set up a series of trade/refueling posts - and the Roman Empire can trade industrial goods for gold, and rapidly increase the rate of urbanisation in western Europe.
The problem is that no matter how you cut it - the Roman Empire needs the Atlantic craft, and then to continue their explorations beyond Hispaniola. Hispaniola remains a fantastic colony - and perhaps the heart of Roman Affairs in the 'Far West', but Mexico has the gold, as does Peru. Finding the Inca and the Mexica for trade partners would be amazing, and would be helped by a great colony "Augustia" in OTL Colombia/Panama. Once that is set up, and trading with the Incans and Mexica for crazy gold - why not spend some of that gold on exploring further west? It worked so well last time
Assuming the Byzantines do well, and conquer places line North Africa and Spain, then besides exploration for explorations sake, there is a genuine opportunity. These provinces, and those like Gaul, or Britannia would all benefit themselves if they could import goods from Asia rather than via Egypt, both providing them the wealth from the trade, and reducing the money that they send to the eastern part of the Empire.
Their explorations could works as in OTL - reasonable open water ships designed for Atlantic use, travel westwards - and find land. (You could tie this into the Vikings)
However, the reaction to the discovery could well be different. No trade route means that the western provinces aren't going to instantly benefit (although a Hispania that continues the attempt and goes south? Yes) but the Roman Empire has an incentive to discern if there is anyone to trade with out West. They spend a fortune in gold on eastern trade, if they can find another trade partner to buy their goods in exchange for gold, then this can address their economic issues. - and who is happy to do that? The Mexica. Roman armaments and equipment for Mexican gold. Set up a series of trade/refueling posts - and the Roman Empire can trade industrial goods for gold, and rapidly increase the rate of urbanisation in western Europe.
The problem is that no matter how you cut it - the Roman Empire needs the Atlantic craft, and then to continue their explorations beyond Hispaniola. Hispaniola remains a fantastic colony - and perhaps the heart of Roman Affairs in the 'Far West', but Mexico has the gold, as does Peru. Finding the Inca and the Mexica for trade partners would be amazing, and would be helped by a great colony "Augustia" in OTL Colombia/Panama. Once that is set up, and trading with the Incans and Mexica for crazy gold - why not spend some of that gold on exploring further west? It worked so well last time
Deleted member 67076
You could always have explorers in this time period be dominated by freelance Greeks, including those that find and facilitate translations between the Mexica and Europe. The result would be the Nahuatl language taking on many different loanwords from Greek, and thus, some Greek influence.
The best POD would probably be something along the lines of the Roman loyalists in Hispania stopping the barbarians in the Pyrenees, but the empire still disintegrating. Assuming that Rome itself falls, it seems feasible that Hispania would not bow to Constantinople and they would probably occasionally war over where their borders in North Africa and possibly Italy lay, but would still be cordial trade partners more often than not simply because at least the other group are not total barbarians. Because the eastern empire would be the far more major partner, even though Hispania probably retains Latin or a celtic-influenced version thereof, Greek would be the language of science and philosophy. As in OTL, this Hispania would have whatever states rise to power in the British isles as naval rivals as well as the Mediterranean trade to give them incentive to build better ships. They might discover the Americas a bit earlier than OTL and would probably be less filthy than the post-plague Western Europeans were, which would probably lead to a less severe set of epidemics obliterating the native-American populace.
Max Sinister
Banned
The question is: Even if the Greeks/Byzantines get Atlantic ports, how long would they need to develop a navy that's able to cross the ocean?
I could imagine a Hellenistic/Roman civilization possibly discovering Mesoamerica, but the POD would be far back enough that the Aztecs would quite possibly be butterflied. The Mayans don't get enough love, though, and they'd still be there.
The Lateen sail has been around for thousands of years, and the Chinese certainly had sufficient shipbuilding skills for this sort of thing, even if motivation for them to go east was lacking. It's easier than it looks, I think.
The Lateen sail has been around for thousands of years, and the Chinese certainly had sufficient shipbuilding skills for this sort of thing, even if motivation for them to go east was lacking. It's easier than it looks, I think.