Greek Constantinople evolution challenge

Gallic85

Banned
How about if somehow Greece obtained Constantinople at some point in the 19th or early 20th century. What would Greece be like with this city and the city itself in Greece? First, could you have a border that would make sense and not cause trouble with jurisdiction and sovereinty and boundary issues? I mean the straits realy are rather narrow and how could you properly decide the territorial waters in the straits and Marmara for Greece and Turkey and not cause other legal issues. And the big guns that existed there and I don't know if they still have them, but they probably had to go.Could you leave the asiatic shores to Turkey and not have any problems or do you need to have the whole straits region with one country? How much richer would Greece be and also would they be able to have the patriarch recognized as an Orthodox pope again, as well as head of the Greek church. And probably there would still be an exchange of populations. I would like to see a map and boundaries and a plot about the political,economic evolution of such a Greece.
 

Gallic85

Banned
Can't anyone say if it was possible to have the european shores of straits and marmara in one state like greece and the asiatic side with turkey and there being no problems or complications, legal, transportation, jurisdiction,defense etc?
 

Gallic85

Banned
How the hell can I tell which forum it is or how to move it or where, when it doesn't say anywhere where to post them.
 
Modern Athens would be a lot less bigger and significant in Greece and the capital would be in Constantinople. The modern Greeks, contrary to western Europeans, were more nostalgic for the Byzantine Empire than the warring city-states of classical antiquity and many wanted to create a new Byzantine state created from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. Constantinople will likely be less populated than OTL without Anatolian migrants coming to the city for job opportunities that are not available inland though that might be offset by Eastern European immigrants or Greeks from other parts of the other country. You'll definitely get a lot less urban sprawl.
 
How the hell can I tell which forum it is or how to move it or where, when it doesn't say anywhere where to post them.

Um, it does, on the 'Discussion' page. It tells you the name of each forum, and describes what sort of threads should go there. This, for example, is in the Alien Space Bats and Other Magic forum, and you should post here if your thread involves patently impossible themes, like aliens, magic, time travel, or fictional universes.

Your thread belongs in the Before 1900 forum, because your suggested timeline diverges from history in the nineteenth century.

You probably can't move it yourself, but you can ask a Mod to do it for you.
 

Gallic85

Banned
Modern Athens would be a lot less bigger and significant in Greece and the capital would be in Constantinople. The modern Greeks, contrary to western Europeans, were more nostalgic for the Byzantine Empire than the warring city-states of classical antiquity and many wanted to create a new Byzantine state created from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. Constantinople will likely be less populated than OTL without Anatolian migrants coming to the city for job opportunities that are not available inland though that might be offset by Eastern European immigrants or Greeks from other parts of the other country. You'll definitely get a lot less urban sprawl.
Hm, why would there be large numbers of Eastern European immigrants if say ww2, cold war and communist era are butterflied away and Greece will not likely be much better economically than other Eastern European countries. Do you think you could have a functional border, with the european shores of straits and Marmara belonging to Greece and the asiatic ones to Turkey?
 

Gallic85

Banned
Modern Athens would be a lot less bigger and significant in Greece and the capital would be in Constantinople. The modern Greeks, contrary to western Europeans, were more nostalgic for the Byzantine Empire than the warring city-states of classical antiquity and many wanted to create a new Byzantine state created from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. Constantinople will likely be less populated than OTL without Anatolian migrants coming to the city for job opportunities that are not available inland though that might be offset by Eastern European immigrants or Greeks from other parts of the other country. You'll definitely get a lot less urban sprawl.
Do you think they would have proclaimed an empire too?
 
After four hundred years of continous turkish rule it will be a mighty ASB for the greeks to obtain Constantinople

Unless the Entete feel that Ottoman should be cut up over the Armenian Genocide as well as the medieval Greek genocide

But then backing up Greek claim to Istanbul will definitely caused an even bigger tragedy toward Turks

There is no way the Turkish people to agree to evacuate Istanbul and the Greeks will definitely do unspeakable things toward their civilian populations that will made Hitler gave his utmost respect to them

Seriously the hatred between Greeks and Turks in the early twentieth century is really huge as it was triple multiplied by religion ethnic and nationalism in both sides
 

Gallic85

Banned
Someone wrote on another thread here that Greece was offered Constantinople,but asked for Smyrna instead. They could have taken Old Byzantium instead and ask for a transfer of populations as in OTL which includes their new capital. I only wondered if a border on the Marmara and Straits was defendible and caused no troubles with demarcation of jurisdiction in very narrow territory and very important too.
 
Well I guess the simplest option would be to split Europe from Asia and hope the peace kept. There would need to be some complicated discussions internationally about freedom of passage as well.

I think the narrowest point is about 0.6 kilometres across (where the main bridge is now). I don't really know anything about the Asian side of the city, but I get the impression that it was more a place of villages, towns and palaces till quite late in the 19th century, when growth/steam ferries started in earnest. I also understand that Istanbul has especially grown post WW2, from the 1970s especially.

So the earlier you hand the city over, the more likely it is to be that it is largely a European side affair.
 

Gallic85

Banned
What about deciding territorial waters, borders and so on in very narrow parts of straits and I guess it would have to be a demilitarized area on both sides of border to some extent at least. Presumably the big guns had to go, but more lightly armed garrisons could be kept maybe?
 

Gallic85

Banned
Well I guess the simplest option would be to split Europe from Asia and hope the peace kept. There would need to be some complicated discussions internationally about freedom of passage as well.

I think the narrowest point is about 0.6 kilometres across (where the main bridge is now). I don't really know anything about the Asian side of the city, but I get the impression that it was more a place of villages, towns and palaces till quite late in the 19th century, when growth/steam ferries started in earnest. I also understand that Istanbul has especially grown post WW2, from the 1970s especially.

So the earlier you hand the city over, the more likely it is to be that it is largely a European side affair.
I meant if it was feasible to place the border on the straits and Marmara sea or if it was too problematic of unworkable and better to have one country controling both shores of straits and Marmara even.
 
I meant if it was feasible to place the border on the straits and Marmara sea or if it was too problematic of unworkable and better to have one country controling both shores of straits and Marmara even.

I think it would be feasible, if there was not a state of active war.
 
Post-WW1 already saw Greece get all of Thrace save a strip around the city, seeing that control extended to it is not impossible.

What will be needed is avoiding a scenario where Greece tries to go for an extended war, alone, with Turkey as per OTL (which saw it lose its gains in western thrace). It simply does not have the manpower to do so. Short, shock wars with the aid of allies and/or against a turkish/ottoman leadership that has a weak hold on its power are the main ways in which it expanded up to western thrace oTL, and how it might do so again. A powerful Russia (more likely non-communist) would probably be a great asset here, being able to sap turkish armies and create a scenario where Greece control the city (which would also be more palatable to the British). Alternatively, you can avoid the Greco-Turkish war alltogether (hard) and have Turkey join the wrong side in some atl WW2.

Without direct intervention from a Great Power (and with its balkan allies having little interest) it gets much harder, but could feasably be possible against a weak government that could be forced to settle early rather than dig in for the long-term like the Kemalists (thus making usage of the superior manpower resources). The straights are a fairly defensible area; essentially being a wide and deep river at its best points, and being an outright sea in others. Without significant sea power (Which is harder to get than raw human conscripts), a crossing can only be done in narrow chokepoints which can be defended even against superior numbers, for a time.

Population wise the majority of the city would probably be expelled (And likely replaced with expulsions of Greeks from Asia Minor), which is unfortunate but not out of place given all the various explusions that happened in that era OTL.

Non-military options are probably not possible. The city is the capital of the Ottoman Empire and the Greek population, whilst substantial, is still very much a minority. Direct conquest or an award in a war between Great Powers is the only way.
 
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You could have a simple post-1900 PoD where the Greeks decide against fighting about Anatolia, so they are not defeated there. Instead they focus on Constantinople, and after some back and forth struggles, the border settles along the straits.
 
In 1914 the population of Istanbul was 909,978

Muslims 560,434
Greeks 205,762
Armenians 84,093
Others 56,689

In European Turkey the total number of Greeks was 309,657 in 1919, also there were 118,000 Armenians and 45,000 Jews.

So there would probably be a population exchange. In OTL 1.5 million Greeks left Turkey and another 500,000 Muslims left Thrace during 1919-1924.
 
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