Greece or Italy World Super Power
- Thread starter Hermanubis
- Start date
I donno, it seems like they might still have population problems…Wendell said:
I think that for Greece and Byzantium, the latest POD is probably some time before 1204. Some might say that a pre Manzikert Is required, but I’m not so sure. For sometime after the First Crusade, it seemed that there was a very real hope that Anatolia would be regained, and although that would not put the Empire at pre Manzikert levels, I think that it would probably give them some time to recover, as long as they can hold it. And up until 2005 is hundreds and hundreds of years to recover…
Perhaps another thing to look at is that it might very well be much easer to make Italy a major power, if not the world super power with a much later POD. And such an Italy may very well hold Greece, and maybe even more of the Balkans as well…
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
As far as post-Manzikert recovery scenarios go, I have one word: Mongols.
Hermanubis said:
True, although I’m not quite sure why this doesn’t apply to the Byzantines pre- Manzikert (also,they could always take Anatolia back *after* the Mongols…)Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
About the Mongols and post-Manzikert scenarios... the Seljuks will be hit just as hard, if not harder, and Byzantines can fight the Mongols more or less on equal terms if they get a decent enough set of generals and rulers - even if their army is not what it used to be, it is still rather formidable during the Comnenian renaissanse, and at least the generals are well versed in steppe people's and light cavalry tactics.
Not to mention the Byzantines could simply do what Novgorod did - pay tribute to the Mongols, call it "foederati payments" or something less insulting to them, and wait until the Horde starts breaking to pieces, which it eventually will. Besides, in OTL the Mongols stopped before getting to Nicaean Empire, who seemed to have been smart enough not to interfere in the Seljuk-Mongol conflict, and to let the things play themselves out.
Hell, stronger surviving Byzantuim could even potentially result in Christian Mongols, at least as soon as the Khanate starts breaking up, the portions of it that are closest to resurgent Byzantium could end up Orthodox, and Imperial subjects, maybe even resulting in a Mongol-descended dynasty some time down the line.
AFAIK, the Mongol invasion could not be all that bad for the Byzantines, because they can play their enemies off each other (as they often did in OTL), and would probably escape the worst of the consequences should they act at least moderately smart, and let the Mongols do their dirty work for them (such as removing the Seljuks from Anatolia, or whatnot).
Anyway, like I said, it would probably be easer to do something with Italy and with a much later POD, and we could probably give it Greece and some surrounding areas…
The Ottoman Empire is more successful at converting the Greeks. At some point, Muslims of Greek origin sieze power in Constantinople from a particularly corrupt and incompetent line of Sultans, and establish a new dynasty which, although they are Muslims and Ottomans before they are Greeks, is referred to European historians as the "Greek Sultans..." 
(And as AHP has shown us, we can get a superpower Ottoman empire with quite late PODs...)
Bruce
(And as AHP has shown us, we can get a superpower Ottoman empire with quite late PODs...)
Bruce
Max Sinister
Banned
Russia in OTL called itself the 3rd Rome. WI they go a step further and form a union with Byzantium? Over the centuries, the Russians adapt Byzantine ways: At first, the court starts speaking Greek, then all the nobles, then the church later the middle class, at the end, everyone.
There's your Greek superpower
There's your Greek superpower
Max Sinister said:Russia in OTL called itself the 3rd Rome. WI they go a step further and form a union with Byzantium? Over the centuries, the Russians adapt Byzantine ways: At first, the court starts speaking Greek, then all the nobles, then the church later the middle class, at the end, everyone.
There's your Greek superpower
Not sure how viable it is; in OTL in early XIXth century most Russian nobles' first language was French, which was considered more prestigious than Russian, however, as Russian nationalism garnered strength, it mostly went away.
Now there is another alternative - Russia did not start calling itself Third Rome until at least XVIth century, if not later. Let's say, Byzantium manages to somehow survive for another hundred years (although it would be hard, given that the Ottomans really did want the city - maybe if somehow they decide to let the city be their vassal and leave it in peace, but this might require some ASBs), and through dynastic ties enters into a personal union with Russia... if Ivan the Terrible is still born, he could inherit Byzantine throne if there are no other male descendants of Paleologi out there that have a better claim. He would definitely be a somewhat legitimate ruler, and could reinforce Constantinople enough to where it would not fall, and would be able to begin reconquest of Greece and Smyrna.
Another alternative - Catherine the Great was getting rather close to reform Byzantium with one of her grandsons as the new Emperor. What if she succeeded? From what I recall, she had said grandson (Constantine) raised in a way that would make him more appealing to the Greeks (it is said he was taught Greek language before Russian), and practically tried to groom him for the Byzantine crown. In this case, we can have Russian-backed neo-Byzantium in XVIIIth century, that over time grows to be a superpower as with Russian backing it slowly but surely dismantles the Ottomans.
Through some butterflies, there can be earlier Italian unification under the mandate of the French crown, or if there is still Napoleon, maybe one of his family members (or even Nappy himself) ends up in control of Italy... if Corsica does not become French possession, or France loses it before Nappy is born (if he is still born, that is), Nappy could be the instrument of Italian unification, and a founder of Italian dynasty that would have just enough power at first to keep itself independent and even get a colony or two here and there, but not enough to wage European war.
Fast forward a century, by now we are getting close to 1900. Neo-Byzantines are by now in control of large parts of Africa as colonies, and the Italians are looking that way themselves, having been a united nation for much longer, and having grown in strength. Both have the aspirations of "new Rome", and both are expansionistic and aggressive; by now Russia has enough problems of its own to let Byzantium do its own thing, although they are still allied.
Not sure if WWI still would occur, as chances are it is butterflied away, but if there is something akin to it, there could be Russian bloc (which will include Byzantium) on one side, possibly including France and maybe Britain, and another bloc, maybe Germany, Austria, and Italy, who is jealously looking at the Byzantine African protectorates and colonies as the means to set up its own empire. If the war does happen, say things happen similar to OTL, the Central Powers getting the worst of things, Russia proper still suffering a revolution, and whatever is left of the Romanovs packing up to Constantinople (where another branch of the family is still enthroned). However, here Italy gets the worst of it, as opposed to Germany, in the eventual version of TTL's Versailles treaty, giving rise to something awkwardly similar to fascism, spiced up with the dreams of old Roman power, and xenophobic hatred of the Byzantines, who in Italian eyes are the "usurpers" of the Roman mantle.
So, a Hitler-analogue rises in Italy, however, he is less bent on conquest than on colonization, and after a few decades gets his way in North Africa and wherever else... since he is less of a wacko than OTL Adolph, he knows fully well that another World War would be suicidal. In a meanwhile, the Byzantines seize as much of the Middle East as they possibly can, getting to oil there, and creating lots of trouble with the Muslim locals, and ending up with a guerilla war on their hands.
With oil revenues, however, the Byzzies get richer and richer with every day, and with an eventual technocrat of sorts in power in Italy, military buildup across both sides of the Adriatic begins - think Cold War. Some time by 1950s, someone comes up with the idea of the nukes, and both sides hungrily arm themselves with anything they can get their hands on. Come 2005, and two nuclear powers still look warily at each other's direction, even though relations had somewhat warmed in the recent decades.
OK, it requires some luck and whatnot, but IMO the above scenario at least has moderate plausibility.
For a super-power Italy, you simply need to unite the Italian provinces as Bismarck did the German provinces, but earlier. The classic way to do that is to adjust minor bits of history so that Napoleon has Italian (Genoese, I believe) rather than French citizenship, and goes on to conquer the Italies and Germanies. If he is restrained (by policy, advisors, or health) after he's grabbed the smaller states, and possibly fought a war against Revolutionary France, he could leave a united central European state behind with a technically Italian name, center of government, and so forth but the bulk of the resources of the Central Powers.
I agree that Greece is more difficult, lacking not in unity but in overall resources. Nonetheless, I think it could be done; it would simply take an earlier departure, sometime in the early colonial period to allow a brief gasp of prosperity which pays unpredictably great dividends.
I agree that Greece is more difficult, lacking not in unity but in overall resources. Nonetheless, I think it could be done; it would simply take an earlier departure, sometime in the early colonial period to allow a brief gasp of prosperity which pays unpredictably great dividends.