Greece and Crete

Just checking a few facts in "the war in the Med" by Bernard Ireland.

Interesting that Mussolini managed to upset Turkey with his invasion of Albania. That prevented him from importing oil from Russia via the Black Sea.

If he hadn't done that? ... the oil crisis for the Italian navy might not have been so severe.

On Malta: The civil war in Spain had shown RN that air power had to be factored into any naval equation.

As Italy became more and more hostile, Malta was in essence abandoned. Alexandria had not been chosen yet (in the late 30's) as anything like a fleet base.

Cyprus was looked at for the RN.

Cunningham's Med fleet consisted of four small cruisers and one Australian destroyer division (must have been in the 1939 time frame. Not clear in the book).

Now let us then look at two situations:

1) Italy is courageous
1939: Italy declares war on Britain (not on France) and the Italian navy is sailing forth in strength.
- Malta could be invaded
- Alexandria could be bombarded
- The Red sea could be blockaded
That will make it very difficult for Britain to get back

2) Britain is courageous
Realising the importance of the Med
- Battleships and carriers
- "Taranto and Matapan" and that is the end of Italian Navy
- "Salerno" in 1939

If we look at the immediate time frame from September 1939 until May 1940, we have so many things which could be done and all rather credible.

(Choose, really).

Ivan
 
Just checking a few facts in "the war in the Med" by Bernard Ireland.

Interesting that Mussolini managed to upset Turkey with his invasion of Albania. That prevented him from importing oil from Russia via the Black Sea.

If he hadn't done that? ... the oil crisis for the Italian navy might not have been so severe.

On Malta: The civil war in Spain had shown RN that air power had to be factored into any naval equation.

As Italy became more and more hostile, Malta was in essence abandoned. Alexandria had not been chosen yet (in the late 30's) as anything like a fleet base.

Cyprus was looked at for the RN.

Cunningham's Med fleet consisted of four small cruisers and one Australian destroyer division (must have been in the 1939 time frame. Not clear in the book).

Now let us then look at two situations:

1) Italy is courageous
1939: Italy declares war on Britain (not on France) and the Italian navy is sailing forth in strength.
- Malta could be invaded
- Alexandria could be bombarded
- The Red sea could be blockaded
That will make it very difficult for Britain to get back

2) Britain is courageous
Realising the importance of the Med
- Battleships and carriers
- "Taranto and Matapan" and that is the end of Italian Navy
- "Salerno" in 1939

If we look at the immediate time frame from September 1939 until May 1940, we have so many things which could be done and all rather credible.

(Choose, really).

Ivan

Malta Cannot be invaded by Italy in 1939 - Surrounded and Bombarded by sea Yes (until the Andrew turns up in force and out of range of the shore defenses) - and air (untill the Islands air group is reinforced) Italy has no Amphibious or Parachute units in 1939 capable of the task.

By all means the Italians can make administrative invasions ie unopposed landings - with everything from ships boats to Transport ships unloading in a port. But unless Malta is given up without a fight then it cannot be invaded by Italy.

The Italian Navy can do what it likes - after all the Med is an Italian Lake until the British choose otherwise and send in more unit than the Italians have and / or as you say give the Italians a Taronto/ Cape Matapan style Kicking

I dont think that teh British can do a Selerno anytime before mid/late 1942

Basically if the Italians want to give battle to the RN in 1939 the RNs biggist issue is who has the biggest battle flag!
 
1) Italy is courageous
1939: Italy declares war on Britain (not on France) and the Italian navy is sailing forth in strength.
And how, prey tell, will you stop the frogs joining in? I mean the poms and frogs were formally allied allied, and even if they were just co-belligerents... well, Italian aggression directed towards the poms would be awfully worrying for the frogs.
 
Of course it would muddle the waters. And that could be the entire purpose.

Italy could have played a far better hand.

Ivan
 
Of course it would muddle the waters. And that could be the entire purpose.
Eh... I don't think you quite understand. You're talking as if my comment was agreeing with you. But it wasn't it was saying the exact bloody opposite. You were implying that a deceleration of war on just one of the allied would not bring other allied powers into the conflict. I argue that is insanely wrong.

Also, as for the Italian fleet sailing forth in strength in 1939... Not happening. Both Andrea Doria class vessels were undergoing a major rebuild until April-October 1940. The first two Litorio class vessels weren't completed until May 1940 (and were not declared combat ready until August). The Italians only had two Conte di Cavour class vessels in service.

And what would those two ships be facing? As of September 1939, two French fast (if somewhat underarmed) Dunkerque class BBs; three French WW1 vintage Battleships and three British Queen Elizabeth class Battleships. Assuming an Italian entry in 1939 I'd be confident the allies retained that sized force in theater (though some fo the QEs may be swapped for Rs...), so until May 1940 the Italian navy would be outnumbered by at least four to one in capital ships.
 
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Eh... I don't think you quite understand. You're talking as if my comment was agreeing with you. But it wasn't it was saying the exact bloody opposite. You were implying that a deceleration of war on just one of the allied would not bring other allied powers into the conflict. I argue that is insanely wrong.

Also, as for the Italian fleet sailing forth in strength in 1939... Not happening. Both Andrea Doria class vessels were undergoing a major rebuild until April-October 1940. The first two Litorio class vessels weren't completed until May 1940 (and were not declared combat ready until August). The Italians only had two Conte di Cavour class vessels in service.

And what would those two ships be facing? As of September 1939, two French fast (if somewhat underarmed) Dunkerque class BBs; three French WW1 vintage Battleships and three British Queen Elizabeth class Battleships. Assuming an Italian entry in 1939 I'd be confident the allies retained that sized force in theater (though some fo the QEs may be swapped for Rs...), so until May 1940 the Italian navy would be outnumbered by at least four to one in capital ships.

Exactly - If Italy declared war on Just the UK then it would not be at war with France - for the few hours it took the French to declare war on them that is!

Oh and just curious but why do you consider the Drunkerque class under armed? Fast - well armoured and with 8 x 13" guns - in 1939 what in the Italian and German Navy can they not take on?

By the same definition S + G with their 9 x 11" guns should stay in port for shame LOL
 
J

As Italy became more and more hostile, Malta was in essence abandoned. Alexandria had not been chosen yet (in the late 30's) as anything like a fleet base.

Cyprus was looked at for the RN.

Not a fleet base but a suggestion that something may have been looked at.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Med-I/UK-Med-I-4.html

As far back as 1937 proposals had been accepted by the Egyptian Government for the construction of a 1,000 ft long graving dock, together with other improvements such as the extension of certain breakwaters and quays, dredging in the harbour, and the deepening of the Great Pass Channel from 34 to 40 feet; this was required to enable capital ships to return to harbour even if their draft were increased by, damage received in action. But beyond a certain amount of dredging in the harbour nothing was done.
 
The Italian submarines were numerous but had all sorts of technical problems. Also, the Med is not a good place for submarine operations due to its clear and often shallow waters. Most British and German submarines sent there got some good results but were eventually sunk. They sent some submarines into the Atlantic but the Germans had to modify them before they could be any use. The Germans thought the Italian crews were undisciplined rubbish and although a very small number achieved good results, the rest of the Atlantic Submarine Group got awful results.

Yes the Italian fleet was a big "what-if?". For instance, what if the Italians had known that their frogmen had got them Battleship superiority in the Med (the British battleships settled upright on the bottom of the shallow harbour and they did things like have bands playing on them to make it seem like there was nothing wrong). What if the Italians had not had a "Fleet in Being" strategy? There were in any case a number of occasions where a more aggressive spirit would have given them better results, if not victory - although it takes "100 years to build a tradition" etc a few key commanders with greater willingness to take risks (like the Germans did, despite their 20 year tradition) could have yielded greater success. Wikipedia has a very interesting series of articles about the Med sea battles, it's worth reading through them all to see how close the campaign really was. I'd really like to play a computer game that models that campaign (the board game to get is called "Bomb Alley").

Another what-if is what might have happened if there had been better co-operation between the Italian air and sea forces - the unsinkable aircraft carrier often didn't co-operate with the fleet and at first the Italian bombers flew too high to hit any ships (so they could avoid AA fire altogether). Also there doesn't seem to have been a good Italian dive-bomber and the SM 79 crews had not had any proper training pre-war as a torpedo bomber, so no torpedo strikes until December 1940.
 
That is what makes it all a bit interesting. There are plenty of opportunities for both sides and nothing is really cast in stone and cannot be changed.

It should also be taken into account that UK (also Churchill for that matter) did not regard Malta as worth defending. The Med strategy was a bit 'un-settled' in those early days.

The official line was to placate Italy.

The battleship race between France and Italy did produce some very nice vessels, but major engagements were not forthcoming.

With the British bombardment of the French navy and the French retaliation by bombing Gibraltar, there is plenty of scope for different scenarios to be played out.

In the event that Italy should declare war on UK (only) in 1939, I do not necessarily see France immediately jumping in.

Daladier was concerned about Germany, but not sure if the Med was a high priority for his government. Also taking into account that the French governments had a tendency to change ever so often.

The Med is not ideal for subs. The quality of the Italian sub arm also a bit here and there. But with a bit more offensive spirit something better could have been expected.

According to Wiki:
"
Sir Andrew Cunningham took command of the fleet from Warspite on 3 September 1939, and under him the major formations of the Fleet were the 1st Battle Squadron (Warspite, Barham, and Malaya) 1st Cruiser Squadron (Devonshire, Shropshite and Sussex), 3rd Cruiser Squadron (Arethusa, Penelope, Galatea), Rear Admiral, Destroyers, Rear Admiral John Tovey, with the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Destroyer Flotillas, and the aircraft carrier Glorious".


I found this:

Even allied to France, Britain's position in the Mediterranean was not guaranteed. Gibraltar may have beeen secure, assuming Spain's continued neutrality, but Malta was considered indefensible in the face of the Italian Air Force based in Sicily. As it happened only the later arrival of the German Luftwaffe turned this threat into a near reality. However, Malta's well-equipped base had to be abandoned by the Mediterranean Fleet for the poorer facilities at Alexandria in Egypt. These threats to Malta, Suez and the Red Sea depended on Italy taking and holding the initiative. Instead, Malta became a thorn in the side of Axis supply routes to Libya. And Libya and Italian East Africa in fact become endangered from the very Allied territories they threatened. Over the next three years, Malta above all became the pivot about which the whole Mediterranean campaign revolved - both the problems of its supply and its effectiveness as an offensive base. Later Axis plans to invade the island so invaluable to the Allied cause came to nothing.
Major Naval Strengths
The Italian Navy maintained a small but useful force in the Red Sea. Against these could be deployed ships of the East lndies Command based at Trincomalee in Ceylon. But the Italian’s overwhelming strength was in the Mediterranean.
The Royal Navy maintained a small force of destroyers at Gibraltar, largely for Atlantic convoy work, but the Western Mediterranean was primarily the responsibility of the French Navy - although British reinforcements could soon be dispatched from the Home Fleet as shortly happened. The Eastern Mediterranean was in the hands of the Mediterranean Fleet and a small French squadron based at Alexandria. It was up to strength in major units but still weak in cruisers, destroyers and submarines when compared with the Italian Navy. This was partly offset by the presence of carrier “Eagle” to accompany battleships “Malaya”, “Ramillies”, “Royal Sovereign” and “Warspite”.
Major Warship types
Western Med
FRENCH NAVY
Mediterranean
Italian NAVY
Eastern Med
ROYAL NAVY
Eastern Med
FRENCH NAVY
Mediterranean
ALLIED TOTAL
Battleships
4
6 (b)
4
1
9
Carriers
-
-
1
-
1
Cruisers
10
21
9
4
23
Destroyers
37(a)
52(c)
25
3
65
Submarines
36
106
10
-
46
TOTALS
87
185(d)
49
8
144
Notes:
(a) Plus 10 British destroyers at Gibraltar
(b) included 2 new battleships completing.
(c) Plus over 60 large torpedo boots.
(d) Based at Massawa in the Red Sea were another 7 destroyers, 8 submarines and 2 torpedo boats.
(www.naval-history.net)

On paper, it looks impressive, but again, it had opportunities all over.

Ivan
 
Sorry, stupid table. I'll try again:

Major Warship types
Western Med
FRENCH NAVY
Mediterranean
Italian NAVY
Eastern Med
ROYAL NAVY
Eastern Med
FRENCH NAVY
Mediterranean
ALLIED TOTAL
Battleships
4
6 (b)
4
1
9
Carriers
-
-
1
-
1
Cruisers
10
21
9
4
23
Destroyers
37(a)
52(c)
25
3
65
Submarines
36
106
10
-
46
TOTALS
87
185(d)
49
8
144
 
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