Greatest defensive Battle of the Twentieth Century

First, the attacking force was Arab, not Turkish. Second, although modern Turkey is an industrialized society, that is the result of drawing on Western science and engineering and on the Western industrial revolution. These changes were not initiated by the Turks themselves, nor were they initiated by the Chinese, the Japanese, the Mongols, or any other group outside of Western and Central Europe. In the 8th century AD, however, the West was fragmented and weak; it couldn't even stand up to the small raiding forces of the Vikings in the following century. The only Christian society capable of beating back jihad was the Byzantine Empire, and they did it, just barely. If they hadn't, it is probable that jihad would have conquered all of Europe, and there is nothing in the history of Islam to indicate that an Islamic Europe would have discovered modern science and launched an industrial revolution.

BTW, the Turks, a Central Asian people, only succeeded in establishing themselves in Anatolia after the Battle of Manzikert--350 years AFTER the 717 AD Siege of Constantinople. And those were the Seljuk Turks. It was the Ottoman Turks who conquered Constantinople in 1453, establishing an empire that failed to participate in any significant degree in the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the scientific revolution or the industrial revolution. This began to change with Ataturk's reforms in the 20th century and certainly Turkey is in many ways a progressive country today. But I don't believe in ignoring historical facts in the pursuit of political correctness and cultural self-flagellation.

You realize all our science and mathematics came from Islam right? If it weren't for Islam, we would be living in a pre-industrial society.

Ataturk didn't initiate anything. The Ottomans had been undergoing all that reform for a long time; he just "peed" all over them to claim them for his personality cult. As for participation in the Renaissance, you are completely wrong - there was great cross-current between East and West that informed and even sparked the Renaissance.

I don't believe in ignoring historical facts in the pursuit of ideological racism or a smug sense of cultural superiority.
 
Ignored.

Chop sticks are actually a great way to eat. Like eating with your fingers but without the mess. Try them next time you are eating ravoli or Chile Verde (you may get an odd look or two, but the method is terrific).

It doesn't work too well for steaks, but most of the world's meals are perfect for chopsticks.

Well, fork can be used to scoop up more solid food that's not in one piece (e.g. corn), break up soft food easily (e.g. cooked or mashed potatoes) etc.can't do that with chop sticks.
 
Can I ask something? Could we move the Influences of Islam debate somewhere else because it seems to be REALLY derailing the point of the thread.

As for my nominations

Gold: Finlands' defence in the Winter War. Yes they lost the war,but they where able to inflict such casualties that they didn't have to give up too much,compared to some. Hell, I'm fairly sure that the memories of the fighting were part of the reason that the Red Army didn't have a second try when they were at their strongest.

Silver:The Israeli Defence of the Golan Heights in 1973. Some of the stuff their tank crews pulled should have been impossible by most standards of modern warfare. Kinda muddies up the concept of 'quantity being a quality of its own' for me

Bronze:The defence of Tobruk 1941. First conclusive defeat of biltzkrieg tactics in World War 2. Still used as a model of how to conduct a successful defence in depth with limited resources.

Honorable Mention:The defence of Iwo Jima. The Imperial Japanese Army was able to savage something like 3 or 4 divisions with only infanty weapons and cut off from all avaliable support. Only battle in the Pacific War where the IJA was able to inflict greater casualties on American forces
 
Can I ask something? Could we move the Influences of Islam debate somewhere else because it seems to be REALLY derailing the point of the thread.

As for my nominations

Gold: Finlands' defence in the Winter War. Yes they lost the war,but they where able to inflict such casualties that they didn't have to give up too much,compared to some. Hell, I'm fairly sure that the memories of the fighting were part of the reason that the Red Army didn't have a second try when they were at their strongest.

Silver:The Israeli Defence of the Golan Heights in 1973. Some of the stuff their tank crews pulled should have been impossible by most standards of modern warfare. Kinda muddies up the concept of 'quantity being a quality of its own' for me

Bronze:The defence of Tobruk 1941. First conclusive defeat of biltzkrieg tactics in World War 2. Still used as a model of how to conduct a successful defence in depth with limited resources.

Honorable Mention:The defence of Iwo Jima. The Imperial Japanese Army was able to savage something like 3 or 4 divisions with only infanty weapons and cut off from all avaliable support. Only battle in the Pacific War where the IJA was able to inflict greater casualties on American forces


I disagree with Tobruk... the aussies where able to resupply from the sea without special difficulty, and Rommel had nothing like the fresh infantry, heavy artillery and airpower required for any kind of even limited fortress assault; nor did he particularly outnumber the garrison he was trying to destroy... the odds where not really against the aussies
 
Honorable Mention:The defence of Iwo Jima. The Imperial Japanese Army was able to savage something like 3 or 4 divisions with only infanty weapons and cut off from all avaliable support.
They did have artillery, which was superbly protected and hidden. All the more points for the IJA in this contest.
 
Wouldn't the Marne also apply?

The First Battle of the Marne as it came before Stalingrad.

Had the Germans won there, who knows what the hell could have happened....:D

I wouldn't call the First Marne a great defensive battle...I seem to recall the Germans being driven back a great distance away from a platform to invest Paris with, and they lost almost as many troops as the attackers.

You could argue that it allowed the Germans to entrench along the Aisne, delaying their surrender for 4 years.
 
Coral Sea.

Stopped the Japanese from their only plausible shot at Port Moresby and gave the Allies some much needed breathing room, which was expanded by Midway and opened the gates for the beginning of the Allied offensive in the Pacific.

Maybe not the greatest of all time, but merits a mention.
 

Deleted member 1487

I wouldn't call the First Marne a great defensive battle...I seem to recall the Germans being driven back a great distance away from a platform to invest Paris with, and they lost almost as many troops as the attackers.

You could argue that it allowed the Germans to entrench along the Aisne, delaying their surrender for 4 years.

Technically both sides alternated from defending and attacking at different parts of the line. It was an epic struggle, but the Germans came out slightly ahead despite being outnumbered at the decisive point of battle. The Wiki article is actually way off for French strength, as they had mobilized a number of reservists during the battle, who were added to the French strength, while the German reinforcements were too far away to make it to the front in time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_the_Marne
 
Technically both sides alternated from defending and attacking at different parts of the line. It was an epic struggle, but the Germans came out slightly ahead despite being outnumbered at the decisive point of battle. The Wiki article is actually way off for French strength, as they had mobilized a number of reservists during the battle, who were added to the French strength, while the German reinforcements were too far away to make it to the front in time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_the_Marne

True. It was numerous engagements going on all along the front line for several days and not one gigantic affair, but judging by the OP's standard for what constitutes a "great defensive battle," the First Marne does not count as a great German defensive triumph, or loss for that matter.
 
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