Greatest chance for Confederate Victory
- Thread starter Anaxagoras
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Anaxagoras
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I think that Confederate victory and Confederate survival are pretty much the same thing.
The Confederates need Kentucky to survive after the war IMO, whether by vote or conquest. They need not invade first but inevitably the state's fortunes must be decided.
What about:
-Copper spinning technology or other means of producing cartridges for Henry Rifles en masse
-Keeping western Tennessee for the early war, at least until 1863
-Provoke riots in Chicago/New York/etc.
-More sabotage behind Union lines
-Bragg takes Louisville following Perryville and threatens Indiana and Illinois (how many regiments do they supply to the Union? Would Southern Illinois secede as they considered doing in late 1861?)
-Foreign aid from *anyone* with a notable navy
-Better supply chains/logistics
What about:
-Copper spinning technology or other means of producing cartridges for Henry Rifles en masse
-Keeping western Tennessee for the early war, at least until 1863
-Provoke riots in Chicago/New York/etc.
-More sabotage behind Union lines
-Bragg takes Louisville following Perryville and threatens Indiana and Illinois (how many regiments do they supply to the Union? Would Southern Illinois secede as they considered doing in late 1861?)
-Foreign aid from *anyone* with a notable navy
-Better supply chains/logistics
The problem here is the majority of Kentuckians were loyal to the Union. If the CSA survives, it won't be in a position to demand Kentucky via a vote. And it won't be in a position to win it via conquest either, as the CSA will survive thanks to the USA giving up on further fighting provided the CSA accepts whatever the borders are when hostilities cease.
Surely that will favour the North rather than the South.
If Kentucky remains neutral, this is very possible.
This was tried. And even the Union helped in the matter. But even with such troubles, it didn't seem to overly matter on the frontlines.
A few more Bedford Forrests eh? Overall, though, I don't think it'll matter overly much as Sherman demonstrated on his March to Atlanta & then to the Sea.
Better yet have Bragg shot dead & someone else take command, as he was the Union's secret weapon out West!
Seriously, though, if Kentucky remains neutral, you won't really have to worry about the Western Theatre being as important as per the OTL. Well that means Britian, more or less, & the chances are pretty low at best of intervention from the UK.
Absolutely. In fact, if there's really a place for Bragg in the scheme of things, then this was probably the real job for him.
The problem here is the majority of Kentuckians were loyal to the Union. If the CSA survives, it won't be in a position to demand Kentucky via a vote. And it won't be in a position to win it via conquest either, as the CSA will survive thanks to the USA giving up on further fighting provided the CSA accepts whatever the borders are when hostilities cease.
I don't know why people keep thinking this. My entire family on both sides is Kentuckian, the state leaned Confederate except for Louisville, Covington, and a few other areas. You're looking at 55-45 or 60-40 in favor of the South, and if memory serves Tennessee sent more regiments to the Union than KY did...
Surely that will favour the North rather than the South.
Confederate forces tried to produce cartridges but failed to do so, the bureaucrat in charge of Union forces refused to equip Union forces with them for fear they would waste bullets!
This was tried. And even the Union helped in the matter. But even with such troubles, it didn't seem to overly matter on the frontlines.
Causing destruction at home will cause troop recalls, and since I doubt the Confederacy can strike Massachusetts then Chicago and Illinois seemed the next best targets.
A few more Bedford Forrests eh? Overall, though, I don't think it'll matter overly much as Sherman demonstrated on his March to Atlanta & then to the Sea.
Personally I think the use of a more consistent command for the Rebels could have denied the Union Atlanta before the 1864 election, replacing Hood at any point would be an even better idea. He had a subordinate (Fitzpatrick?) who could have proved much more capable.
Better yet have Bragg shot dead & someone else take command, as he was the Union's secret weapon out West! Seriously, though, if Kentucky remains neutral, you won't really have to worry about the Western Theatre being as important as per the OTL.
It means initially everyone scrambles for getting into KY while making the other side look guilty. KY might have proclaimed neutrality but it was not going to be neutral for long, someone would eventually drop the ball. As a Union leader I'd be probing VA via those pesky western counties and trying to cut off the railroad from Knoxville, TN if not getting that part of the region to counter-secede for the Union or hitting Arkansas as a means of heading for Memphis and New Orleans. As a Rebel leader I'd be trying to get some Union uniforms for my cavalry and entering the state from as far north as possible to make it look like an incursion to bring the state in on the rebel side.
I don't know why people keep thinking this. My entire family on both sides is Kentuckian, the state leaned Confederate except for Louisville, Covington, and a few other areas. You're looking at 55-45 or 60-40 in favor of the South, and if memory serves Tennessee sent more regiments to the Union than KY did...
Surely that will favour the North rather than the South.
Confederate forces tried to produce cartridges but failed to do so, the bureaucrat in charge of Union forces refused to equip Union forces with them for fear they would waste bullets!
This was tried. And even the Union helped in the matter. But even with such troubles, it didn't seem to overly matter on the frontlines.
Causing destruction at home will cause troop recalls, and since I doubt the Confederacy can strike Massachusetts then Chicago and Illinois seemed the next best targets.
A few more Bedford Forrests eh? Overall, though, I don't think it'll matter overly much as Sherman demonstrated on his March to Atlanta & then to the Sea.
Personally I think the use of a more consistent command for the Rebels could have denied the Union Atlanta before the 1864 election, replacing Hood at any point would be an even better idea. He had a subordinate (Fitzpatrick?) who could have proved much more capable.
Better yet have Bragg shot dead & someone else take command, as he was the Union's secret weapon out West!
Seriously, though, if Kentucky remains neutral, you won't really have to worry about the Western Theatre being as important as per the OTL. It means initially everyone scrambles for getting into KY while making the other side look guilty. KY might have proclaimed neutrality but it was not going to be neutral for long, someone would eventually drop the ball. As a Union leader I'd be probing VA via those pesky western counties and trying to cut off the railroad from Knoxville, TN if not getting that part of the region to counter-secede for the Union or hitting Arkansas as a means of heading for Memphis and New Orleans. As a Rebel leader I'd be trying to get some Union uniforms for my cavalry and entering the state from as far north as possible to make it look like an incursion to bring the state in on the rebel side.
Well every history book I've researched on the subject says the opposite - that it's somewhere around 60% in favour of the Union in regards to Kentuckian loyalty. Likewise, when you look at the break-down in volunteers from Kentucky, there were far more for the North than for the South. Admittedly, though, the Governor was pro-CSA, but the state's congress was pro-Union. Whether or not, in the aftermath of the fighting with the CSA still around, it's possible that Kentucky may throw its lot in with the CSA, but it wouldn't be achieved through conquest.
Yes, the Southern armouries were notorious for such things. And that Northern bureaucrat can't have lasted too long, because repeater rifles were pretty much the norm by 1864...
This happened as historical fact. In fact whilst Gettysburg was being fought you had very nasty riots in New York! Still, the Union won at Gettysburg around the same time as suppressing the rioters in NYC. I doubt, even if another riot or two took place, that overall much would change in regards to the actual outcome of the war.
No arguements from me here. The CSA command situation out West was woeful. Bragg was the cause of much of this, but also Davis chopping & changing didn't help either. Frankly Longstreet should have taken command, prior to Chickamaugua (if not much earlier) & stayed there. Then again if the CSA never invaded Kentucky, then
none of the troubles out West would have ever taken place.
Well I'm not at all certain for the so-called scramble for Kentucky. If anything, the two sides at first pretty much kept out of Kentucky because events elsewhere gained their attention, whether it be in the East, or further out West. Furthermore, Lincoln made it well known that Kentucky neutrality was to be respected. And there's no indication that he had any intention in changing his mind as far as I'm aware. It was Davis who was wrongly lead to believe, or more to the point it was that idiot Polk, that Kentuckians would flock to the Rebel course. All it did, however, was to open up the Western Confederacy to invasion, which took place long before the Union had a real chance in taking Richmond. It would have been far better to limit the Western front to Missouri so that the Union's numerical superiority couldn't be used to great advantage. And thanks to the likes of Grant & Sherman, it didn't take that long before the CSA was in serious trouble thanks to the dirty & dusty Western Theatre & not the glamorous Eastern one.
JWQ
Gone Fishin'
Forgive me if I’m late . However in my alternative history I instead have president Howell Cobb’s instead of Jefferson Davis. This action is crucial because Jefferson Davis was Notorious for incompetence in his selection of generals. Back to important factors or battles I would probably argue foreign intervention or the border states joining the confederacy as the most important factors. Then they could win decisive battles elsewhere such as Gettysburg, Maryland campaign ,Atlanta ect
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