Greater US

Musketeer513 · May 31, 2004

After reading Ancient Egypt survivesâ€¦, The Second Carthaginian Empire and others which are such great timelines I decided on something simpler.

In 1917, the USA bought the Danish Virgin Islands from Denmark for $25 million. The motivation was fear the German would acquire the islands and build submarine bases.

POD. The United States decides to acquire other lands in the New World out of fear of possible German acquisition.

March 1917: United States buys the Danish West Indies for $25 million.
May 1917: United States buys Greenland for $25 million, while the purchase does not alarm Great Britain it worries the Canadians who are now surrounded by the United States on 3 sides.
December 1917: United States buys Dutch Caribbean possessions and Dutch Guinea for $100 million.
March 1918: United States buys French Caribbean possessions and French Guinea for $100 million.
April 1918: United States buys British Caribbean possessions, British Guinea and British Honduras for $250 million.
May 1918: United States passes an amendment canceling the Teller Amendment and annex Cuba, Haiti and the Dominican Republic.
June 1918: United States annexes Liberia.
November 1918: The Great War Ends, United States Supreme in the Caribbean.

MerryPrankster · May 31, 2004

How exactly is the US going to annex Liberia? I can figure doing stuff in the Caribbean, but Liberia is very far away.

Rahul · May 31, 2004

Former US slaves might be sympathetic now that we've abandoned slavery and such. However, it is geographically far away and that could become a problem. Plus, last I heard, the majority of the population wasn't the former slaves but the locals who actually lived there prior to settlement by former slaves.

Musketeer513 · May 31, 2004

Very True

Rahul said:
Former US slaves might be sympathetic now that we've abandoned slavery and such. However, it is geographically far away and that could become a problem. Plus, last I heard, the majority of the population wasn't the former slaves but the locals who actually lived there prior to settlement by former slaves.

The former slaves were only 5% of the total population but held total economic and political control.

Musketeer513 · May 31, 2004

True

Matt Quinn said:
How exactly is the US going to annex Liberia? I can figure doing stuff in the Caribbean, but Liberia is very far away.

But as I noted the former slaves had complete politcal control. Many were in favor of US take over. US companies had big investments in Liberia, so economiclt nor politcally nothing to stop the US if we wanted to annex the place. Just in OTL we were satisfied with defacto control of the place like we were with Cuba.

Pax Britannia · Jun 1, 2004

Why would Britain want to sell its Carribean possessions?

carlton_bach · Jun 1, 2004

Pax Britannia said:
Why would Britain want to sell its Carribean possessions?

In return for waiving the war debts? It would need to be a pretty big carrot, but if the US is prepared to pay through its nose and makes it clear how much it wants them (as in - sale now or war in twenty years' time), they might. Probably not, but who knows? THe idea of turning colonies into cash might appeal to European powers after 1918, especially if it becomes clear that L'Allemagne *can't* payera tout.

Tyr · Jun 1, 2004

I'm sick of this American thing in alternate history where people think you can just buy anything.
I am not sure about the others but Britain certainly would not sell its Carribean possessions.

It has been said here before that Britain was earning more from other nation's war debts to them then they were paying to the US.

I would imagine the French and Dutch wouldn't want to sell their possessions either-
The Dutch want to look like a major power and they don't have any war debts or anything.
The French also want to appear big and up to the current day they still own French Guiana.

David S Poepoe · Jun 1, 2004

carlton_bach said:
In return for waiving the war debts? It would need to be a pretty big carrot, but if the US is prepared to pay through its nose and makes it clear how much it wants them (as in - sale now or war in twenty years' time), they might. Probably not, but who knows? THe idea of turning colonies into cash might appeal to European powers after 1918, especially if it becomes clear that L'Allemagne *can't* payera tout.

Its so preposterous that its funny. I've got to agree with Leej, that this continued idea, in this ATL and others, that there would be nations just falling over themselves in the race to sell land to the US - which always seems to have money - is unbelieveable. In such an instance, why isn't the US buying Canada? Better return on its money. I don't see it happening, and I have to admit that it totally destroys the probability of an ATL for me. It just isn't going to happen. Americans may think its always about the bottom dollar, but for other nations its not.

Musketeer513 · Jun 1, 2004

Let's look at this for a moment

Leej said:
I'm sick of this American thing in alternate history where people think you can just buy anything.
I am not sure about the others but Britain certainly would not sell its Carribean possessions.

It has been said here before that Britain was earning more from other nation's war debts to them then they were paying to the US.

I would imagine the French and Dutch wouldn't want to sell their possessions either-
The Dutch want to look like a major power and they don't have any war debts or anything.
The French also want to appear big and up to the current day they still own French Guiana.

David S Poepoe said:
Its so preposterous that its funny. I've got to agree with Leej, that this continued idea, in this ATL and others, that there would be nations just falling over themselves in the race to sell land to the US - which always seems to have money - is unbelieveable. In such an instance, why isn't the US buying Canada? Better return on its money. I don't see it happening, and I have to admit that it totally destroys the probability of an ATL for me. It just isn't going to happen. Americans may think its always about the bottom dollar, but for other nations its not.

Denmark had no war debts but they did sell their West Indian colonies. Just as the United States put pressure on Denmark to sell the same could be applied to the Dutch. March and April 1918 were not very good times for the British or the French, if selling some possessions in the West Indies could produce greater US involvement, yes I know the United States was already in the war, selling wouldn't seem so out of the question.

Landshark · Jun 1, 2004

Denmark's a small country and not very big in the colony game, selling off a few islands on the other side of the world might make sense to them but the Netherlands are another matter. The Dutch may not be up there with the British or the French in terms of international status but unlike the Danes they are professional players not Sunday leaguers. Just what pressure could the US apply to the Dutch? "Give us your colonies or we'll send in the marines"?, that's gonna go down a storm in Congress and appling economic pressure will be just as unpalatable to Wall Street.

Jared · Jun 1, 2004

David S Poepoe said:
Its so preposterous that its funny. I've got to agree with Leej, that this continued idea, in this ATL and others, that there would be nations just falling over themselves in the race to sell land to the US - which always seems to have money - is unbelieveable. In such an instance, why isn't the US buying Canada? Better return on its money. I don't see it happening, and I have to admit that it totally destroys the probability of an ATL for me. It just isn't going to happen. Americans may think its always about the bottom dollar, but for other nations its not.

The plausibility of other nations selling colonies to the USA (or indeed, to other nations entirely) will depend on the nature of the government involved, and on the nation. In particular, if there is a mostly imperial or autocratic government, and you get a sale-minded leader, then it may happen. For example, Napoleon was able to sell off Louisiana, and Russia sold off Alaska.

With more democratic governments, this is much rarer. The Danish West Indies/U.S. Virgin Islands are just about the only example I can think of offhand. By and large, the British didn't go in for it, and getting them to sell the British Caribbean would be unlikely. The French would depend on the leader. If Napoleon III was in charge, well, maybe. There are few men more mercurial. Once you start dealing with Republican France, then the odds of voluntary sales go down to very near zero. The Dutch were perfectly willing to buy colonies (see parts of the Dutch East Indies, for example) but, in general, unwilling to sell them. You'd need an alt-Dutch government which has plausible reasons for selling them. And, for that matter, an alt-US government, which usually didn't bother trying to buy up large chunks of the Lesser Antilles. (Cuba was another issue).

However, the US having money to buy is not really an issue. Unless this is a much poorer USA than OTL, it will have the money to buy Caribbean islands. The challenge is finding motivation in other governments to sell. Difficult, but not impossible, and the POD would probably need to be one that changes those governments, rather than something in the USA. This is particularly unlikely in Britain.

Oh, and the sale of Canada is unlikely simply because even if Britain was willing to sell it, which is just this side of impossible, a fair price for Canada would be far, far too high even for the USA to manage.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III