Greater, Lesser, Least German Solutions - A Different Unification?

The German question was the debate over the best way for how the various states of the German Confederation to unify and become a united Germany with two main options. The Grossdeutsche Losung, Greater German solution, was for all the countries of the German Confederation to unite which was supported by Austria whilst the Kleindeutsche Losung, Lesser German solution, was based mainly around the north German countries and excluded Austria which Prussia supported. This is of course a simplification of the situation. But what if there was a third option - the Least German solution? In this option rather than merely excluding Prussia or Austria instead they are both excluded by the other members of the German Confederation, either themselves or in connection with the Frankfurt parliament, who decide to move ahead without them.

It's was just a random idea I had after trying to come up with a way to get Queen Victoria on the throne of a German Empire but now ignoring that part I'm wondering if this Least German idea might be in any way possible. One of the major stumbling blocks I can see is the Prussian provinces of Rhine and Westphalia since I can't really see them being cut off from the main part of Prussia by this new state, can anyone think of a good scenario for them not receiving them after the Napoleonic wars? The best I could come up with is that they annex the entire of Saxony whose king is relocated and gets them in compensation.
 
The German question was the debate over the best way for how the various states of the German Confederation to unify and become a united Germany with two main options. The Grossdeutsche Losung, Greater German solution, was for all the countries of the German Confederation to unite which was supported by Austria whilst the Kleindeutsche Losung, Lesser German solution, was based mainly around the north German countries and excluded Austria which Prussia supported. This is of course a simplification of the situation. But what if there was a third option - the Least German solution? In this option rather than merely excluding Prussia or Austria instead they are both excluded by the other members of the German Confederation, either themselves or in connection with the Frankfurt parliament, who decide to move ahead without them.

It's was just a random idea I had after trying to come up with a way to get Queen Victoria on the throne of a German Empire but now ignoring that part I'm wondering if this Least German idea might be in any way possible. One of the major stumbling blocks I can see is the Prussian provinces of Rhine and Westphalia since I can't really see them being cut off from the main part of Prussia by this new state, can anyone think of a good scenario for them not receiving them after the Napoleonic wars? The best I could come up with is that they annex the entire of Saxony whose king is relocated and gets them in compensation.

I think you are on the money with what needs to happen. A weaker Prussia without it's western provinces would open up the possibility of an independent third power base in Germany to balance against the Prussians and Austrians. I could definitely imagine increasing integration of the confederation that the Prussians ultimately don't participate in because they're worried about losing power to the new national government, dominated by voters in the rest of Germany.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Greater Hanover?

Greater Hanover? Especially integrated with the Netherlands?

Not sure how you get there, however.

Best,
 
One idea I came up with, but never did anything with, is what if there were regional unifications and then all those regional successor states came together to form the Empire

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Make Prussia not won the rhineland, give all both third partitions lands back plus Saxony and part of Bohemia, Make Wettis the 'Rhineland kings' and give Belgium to the Wittelbatsch, and voila, 1848 come and both surrender, a more polish Prussia Back down, telling there is not germany East of the Elbe. Austria say they are Austrian and Hasburg first, german second.

So we've a 'lesser' germany without those two and three major states in central europe, that will be fun
 

raharris1973

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this reference map may help---


One of the major stumbling blocks I can see is the Prussian provinces of Rhine and Westphalia since I can't really see them being cut off from the main part of Prussia by this new state, can anyone think of a good scenario for them not receiving them after the Napoleonic wars? The best I could come up with is that they annex the entire of Saxony whose king is relocated and gets them in compensation.

I like this. Looking at the map below, Let's say that in Congress of Vienna, Prussia gets a more "East Germany" like border, by getting the remainder of Saxony, with the Saxon King getting a new kingdom consisting of what became in OTL Prussia's Lower Rhine and Julich-Cleve-Burg provinces.
That by itself is generous compensation without even including Westphalia. Prussia can round out it's northern border by taking on the territory of Mecklenberg, while it's prince takes over Westphalia province. The Hohenzollern-Sigmarinen line can exchange the Anhalt pockets for Hohenzollern in southwest Germany.

I guess some powers (Russia, Britain) may be concern that it does not leave a strong enough power guarding the Rhine. But the new Wettin-ruled Rhineland would be comparable in demographic weight to Piedmont and Bavaria (with Palatinate) that were used as buffers against France.

There's the argument that the Wettins had been too pro-French as rulers of Saxony, but no German state had repeatedly allied with France as often as Bavaria, yet it still gained territory and was responsible for Rhineland Palatinate in OTL.

181815ge.gif
 
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Prussia can round out it's northern border by taking on the territory of Mecklenberg, while it's prince takes over Westphalia province. The Hohenzollern-Sigmarinen line can exchange the Anhalt pockets for Hohenzollern in southwest Germany.
I'd rather not get too swap-happy at this point, Saxony was in the dog house due to being seen as too close to France whilst I wasn't aware of anything that would greatly discredit Mecklenburg-Schwerin to seem them forced to move. Plus if Prussia starts agglomerating in the east it could start making people nervous, Westphalia and the Rhineland were at least separated and some way off from Prussia-proper.


I guess some powers (Russia, Britain) may be concern that it does not leave a strong enough power guarding the Rhine. But the new Wettin-ruled Rhineland would be comparable in demographic weight to Piedmont and Bavaria (with Palatinate) that were used as buffers against France.
I think it's do-able. It wouldn't convince the British government but one way to get George IV on side as King of Hanover could be to transfer part of Westphalia north of the Ems river to Hanover. Besides which I just thing it looks more tidy. :)


There's the argument that the Wettins had been too pro-French as rulers of Saxony, but no German state had repeatedly allied with France as often as Bavaria, yet it still gained territory and was responsible for Rhineland Palatinate in OTL.
As you say Bavaria was considered acceptable and able to make out well enough. Perhaps have the Saxons see the writing on the wall and switch from the French to the Allied/Coalition side a little sooner? It's somewhat cynical and still leaves them under a bit of a cloud forcing them to accept the swap but their reputation isn't as bad as our timeline.


Here's what I was generally thinking about. Apologies for the roughness, it's just a very quick 30 second Microsoft Paint job. :)

German Confederation.png

German Confederation.png
 

raharris1973

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What are you trying to represent on the Russo-Prussian borderlands of Poland? What you are proposing with regard to Rhineland-Westphalia and Hanover is certainly clear enough.
 

I think it´s a misunderstanding, that the saxon king would gain all of "Rhine-Prussia" in Exchange for Saxony. The Prusians definitly wanted some gains in Rhineland-Westphalia and Britain wanted the Prussians as "Wácht am Rhine". As far as I jnow the Ersatz-kingdom for the Wettins would be limited on the Middle-Rhine area, from Koblenz to Cologne.
 
I think it´s a misunderstanding, that the saxon king would gain all of "Rhine-Prussia" in Exchange for Saxony. The Prusians definitly wanted some gains in Rhineland-Westphalia and Britain wanted the Prussians as "Wácht am Rhine". As far as I jnow the Ersatz-kingdom for the Wettins would be limited on the Middle-Rhine area, from Koblenz to Cologne.

Not to mention, that some of the territorial transfers won't happen. AFAIK Prussia also gained parts of Nassau from Orange-Nassau branch, now this might all go to the Nassau-Weilburg branch.

Parts of Limburg, Gelderland and Luxemburg (will be returned to the Grand Duchy) were also part of the Rhineland, so maybe Willem I is able to get those. IOTL he had ambitions to basically expand his new kingdom all the way to Nassau. Now this still won't happen ITTL, but parts of Jülich-Kleve-Berg (maybe Kleve/Kleef, and the other parts with dialects clsoely related to Dutch) and the Lower Rhine seem possible, if the alternative is the former king of Saxony, who was deemed a bit too pro-Napoleonic.
 

raharris1973

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
snip
I think it´s a misunderstanding, that the saxon king would gain all of "Rhine-Prussia" in Exchange for Saxony. The Prusians definitly wanted some gains in Rhineland-Westphalia and Britain wanted the Prussians as "Wácht am Rhine". As far as I jnow the Ersatz-kingdom for the Wettins would be limited on the Middle-Rhine area, from Koblenz to Cologne.

How about this, the Prussians just get Rhineland (and maybe OTL's Bavarian Palatinate and Luxemburg to boot), but do not get Westphalia, which goes to the Wettins.

This leaves the non-Prussian, non-Austrian "third" Germany of other states with a wider "waist", and while Prussia has its eastern German territories and the Rhenish territories of the former Lorraine stem duchy, the bulk of the territory formerly filled of the other stem duchies, Bavaria, Swabia, Franconia and Saxony is all non-Prussian and could eventually become a state like a slightly truncated West Germany or the kingdom of Louis the German in the 900s AD?
 
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