Greater Korea?

Is there any way that a united Korea can become far more powerful on the international stage than the chess-piece nation it was IOTL?

I know this is difficult, not least due to its neighbours. But I am sure there is someway of dealing with them. How could we reverse the situation with Japan, where they are a potential playing ground for Korean interests? In what ways could we prevent China from crushing the growing Korean Empire too early? I would think that without a strong Japan and minimal Chinese pressure, Korea might expand into Manchuria, which wasn't really considered apart of China until comparatively recently, and Kyushu, but East Asian history has never been my speciality. Which is why I am asking the experts.

What do to you think?
 
Again, shooting for the hip here but what if Kublai, instead of conquering all China, decided to just leave it in ruins and go home. China descended into chaos and is raided by the Mongols regularly from their northern Song possessions? In such a situation Korea might be an ally of the Mongols and be in a position to make some Chinese gains. It's also possible that the northern Chinese might begin to consider themselves distinct from the rest and forge a separate sino-mongol identity. I don't know, there is a lot of mythology and nationalism bound up in the "inevitable Han unity" thing so I can't separate fact from fiction very easily at this stage.

The general point is to keep China from successfully unifying and repeated Mongol incursions might do the trick--supplemented by Korean land/siege type forces though of course, the Koreans had fits when the Japanese built castles during Hideyoshi's invasion, that war was won at sea.
 
Korea somehow manages to reunify China and establishes a Dynasty by claming the Mandate of Heaven. After that Japan should easily fall into the sphere of influence of the Korean-Chinese hybrid empire, especially if Japan is still feudalistic.
 
Korea somehow manages to reunify China and establishes a Dynasty by claming the Mandate of Heaven. After that Japan should easily fall into the sphere of influence of the Korean-Chinese hybrid empire, especially if Japan is still feudalistic.
Whilst I like the idea, the OP is for a Korean Empire. If Korea unified China it would fall into the same fate as the Manchu's and be assimilated into China, which is something I would like to avoid.
 
Whilst I like the idea, the OP is for a Korean Empire. If Korea unified China it would fall into the same fate as the Manchu's and be assimilated into China, which is something I would like to avoid.

Korea not assimilated into China? I think OTL has already beat you to it :p. But seriously, Korea has basically been a scaled down version of China throughout its history so assimilation wouldn't really mean much of a difference in Korean culture.
 
The crucial question is about ressources.
Where does Greater Korea get ressources for more power from?

I don't think a conquest nation is a good idea, given the neighbors.
Moreover, Mongol and Siberian areas do not really add much to
Korea's wealth. Mandchuria would be the only country Korea might
incorporate; but I think it is safer if Mandchuria is independent.
You needn't read importance from square kilometers.

Almost necessarily we need a week China, and a not-too-strong Japan.
MNPundit has already come up with ways how to accomplish that.
Now care for factors which keep China down (let it split into two to four
copeting states; late it be paralyzed politically and militarily).
At the same time, let the Chinese coastal cities still maintain some
moderate wealth, and let Korea (for whatever reason) urbanize quickly.
Then we have a small nation which dominates the larger region ecomomically
via sea trade, and also constitutes a considerable military power by comparison.
But it is restricted to the penisula, perhaps with a couple of trading posts
offshore.
 
Korea not assimilated into China? I think OTL has already beat you to it :p. But seriously, Korea has basically been a scaled down version of China throughout its history so assimilation wouldn't really mean much of a difference in Korean culture.

Well they do have their own language and writing system... Plus their own versions of totalitarian communism, christian fundamentalism, not to mention cooking.
 

AINDF

Banned
Korea not assimilated into China? I think OTL has already beat you to it :p. But seriously, Korea has basically been a scaled down version of China throughout its history so assimilation wouldn't really mean much of a difference in Korean culture.

Korea is as much of a scaled down China as Belgium is a scaled down Germany or Italy. The only reason anyone would think this is if they are looking at an overly euro centric vision of the world, that would define all Asians or Africans as being identical.
 
I know this is difficult, not least due to its neighbours. But I am sure there is someway of dealing with them. How could we reverse the situation with Japan, where they are a potential playing ground for Korean interests? In what ways could we prevent China from crushing the growing Korean Empire too early? I would think that without a strong Japan and minimal Chinese pressure, Korea might expand into Manchuria, which wasn't really considered apart of China until comparatively recently, and Kyushu, but East Asian history has never been my speciality. Which is why I am asking the experts.

In such a situation Korea might be an ally of the Mongols and be in a position to make some Chinese gains. It's also possible that the northern Chinese might begin to consider themselves distinct from the rest and forge a separate sino-mongol identity. I don't know, there is a lot of mythology and nationalism bound up in the "inevitable Han unity" thing so I can't separate fact from fiction very easily at this stage.

The general point is to keep China from successfully unifying and repeated Mongol incursions might do the trick--supplemented by Korean land/siege type forces though of course, the Koreans had fits when the Japanese built castles during Hideyoshi's invasion, that war was won at sea.

Korea somehow manages to reunify China and establishes a Dynasty by claming the Mandate of Heaven. After that Japan should easily fall into the sphere of influence of the Korean-Chinese hybrid empire, especially if Japan is still feudalistic.

The crucial question is about ressources.
Where does Greater Korea get ressources for more power from?

I don't think a conquest nation is a good idea, given the neighbors.
Moreover, Mongol and Siberian areas do not really add much to
Korea's wealth. Mandchuria would be the only country Korea might
incorporate; but I think it is safer if Mandchuria is independent.
You needn't read importance from square kilometers.

Almost necessarily we need a week China, and a not-too-strong Japan.
MNPundit has already come up with ways how to accomplish that.
Now care for factors which keep China down (let it split into two to four
copeting states; late it be paralyzed politically and militarily).
At the same time, let the Chinese coastal cities still maintain some
moderate wealth, and let Korea (for whatever reason) urbanize quickly.
Then we have a small nation which dominates the larger region ecomomically
via sea trade, and also constitutes a considerable military power by comparison.
But it is restricted to the penisula, perhaps with a couple of trading posts
offshore.

Well they do have their own language and writing system... Plus their own versions of totalitarian communism, christian fundamentalism, not to mention cooking.

Korea is as much of a scaled down China as Belgium is a scaled down Germany or Italy. The only reason anyone would think this is if they are looking at an overly euro centric vision of the world, that would define all Asians or Africans as being identical.

It's interesting to see this . . . I didn't notice this before.

I think that Korea would definitely be able to expand into neighboring countries.

For one thing, Manchuria was considered a separate part of Manchuria; in fact, three of the Korean kingdoms grew up around the area, and it was home to some other nomadic tribes, such as the Khitan and the Liao. Also, the Mongols did take control later, but they had a hard time controlling the people. However, if they had been more controlled and didn't overexpand themselves, they might have controlled northern China, and the two Chinas might have developed separately.

Yes Korea did have issues with Japan; they were invaded three times by the Japanese, and Korea repelled them with naval power under Yi Sun-shin. But that was only because an the king never listened to one of his advisors, who told him that certain numbers of troops needed to be maintained in each of the provinces.

Japan adopted the Mandate of Heaven for their own purposes, although it never maintained control over all of the islands until the 19th century, so I guess Korea could have used it to their advantage.

Resources are not a problem at all . . . Manchuria has plenty of them, and I don't thing that Korea would go haywire by invading Mongolia and Siberia and overextend themselves. Japan might be a possiblity, but as a group of islands, they don't possess resources. Manchuria shouldn't be independent; I think at most, they should be Korean vassals so that they can control them at will, and I don't think that it would be possible for China to industrialize until the Ming, after they had a close shave with Japan, possibly influencing them to adopt European methods.

Yes, they do have their own language and writing system, but so do the Manchus and the Mongols. They were pretty powerful in their day, and yet they failed to fully subjugate the people under them because they became so extensive. It also depends on what you mean by communism; remember, Korea is one of the few divided countries in the world, and of course they would have their own versions of all of these things. I mean, look at Christianity. It probably has the most number of sects in the world.

Korea is definitely not a scaled down version of China, believe me. The three most influential Asian countries, China, Japan, and Korea, all maintain some antagonism against each other somewhat, especially because Japan attempted to colonize the other two, and although they might be culturally similar, it's mostly because Korea and Japan adopted their neighbors' identities, not because they were subjugated like Belgium was. Also, the Chinese are genetically different from the Japanese and Koreans.

If you want concrete examples, take a look at my timeline.
 
Hmm, I have somewhat knowledge of the development of Japanese warfare and organization (in regards to military mobilization) from Kamakura-to-Meiji but I don't know the psychology otherwise. What would the various Japanese lords do if Korea invaded Japan (during one of those periods where Japan was engulfed in feudal warfare)?
 
Well what do you know about the development?

Technically, as I said before, Japan was never truly united until the 19th century, so your theory could work for any time period, but they might attempt to gather their troops together and possibly repel the Koreans.

Keep in mind that Korea didn't have much territory in Manchuria, so they didn't have much natural resources and a powerful army. Again, look at what happened when Japan invaded Korea. The latter was devastated, and it only managed to escape colonization because it had a superior general.
 
Well what do you know about the development?
Progression of Japanese tactics, arms and armor and to a lesser extent the methods of organizing mass amounts of men. Mostly from the end of the Heian until the beginning of Tokugawa. I'm more concerned with determining exactly what natural resources pre-gunpowder or early-gunpowder Korea would need beyond the current borders--are you talking farmland, livestock, ores, combustibles?--and which does Manchuria have.
 
Well gunpowder is obviously an important component; Korea first obtained it from China and used it in a surprise battle against the Japanese, who later obtained it from the Portuguese. During the Seven-Years War, the Japanese had a slight advantage over the Koreans on land, and if the Koreans had expanded, then they would probably have come into contact with the Europeans and have developed both technologically and industrially.

Manchuria would have plenty of farmland and ores, and there might be some livestock, but Korea probably would have brought some over. I'm not sure if Manchuria had combustibles, but I think that they had uranium.

In short, Korea would definitely need all of the above in order to advance militarily.
 
Perhaps we could go the Dutch/Portuguese style--they were small nations, but they were able to create a fair sized Empires. We'd have to considerably advance East Asia while at the same time creating a balance of power that would prevent Korea from being dominated by either Japan or China. So let's say the Ming Dynasty doesn't throw out all the economic policies of the Song, and Chinese development increases dramatically over time. However, the Chinese taxes are still paid in silver as OTL, and say the Japanese play their cards better. With their vast supplies of silver, Japan withdraws from the sino-centric economic system and gains considerable power. After a few Sino-Japanese Wars, a treaty between the two powers leaves Korea as an independent nation, as neither Japan nor China wants Korea controlled by the other.

Meanwhile, these economic policies have sped up East Asian development by a wide margin. The Chinese first discover (using OTL names) California and Australia in the 16th century, and by the 17th, they have rapidly expanding colonies in California and northern Australia. However, the wealth has spread to both Japan and Korea, who want a piece of the action. Japan quickly explores Alaska and the North Pacific, expanding East. In both Japan and China, these ventures are government sponsored as a response to each other. In Korea, however, merchants create the first joint stock companies, which quickly attract Japanese and Chinese Merchants and money. These new companies have the wealth behind them to create numerous ships and a sustain large seaborne empire. The Korean South America Company is formed, which quickly is successful in creating ports and colonies along Central and South America. While initially smaller than their Japanese and Chinese counterparts, the Koreans are able to develop their colonies in Central America well, and create ships in the Caribbean ocean. This leads to fast, easy trade with Europe, bringing further money to Korea, as well as the possibility of colonies on the Eastern side of the Americas, whereas the Japanese and Chinese are confined to the West. Furthermore, the crash of the price of silver in the 17th centruty badlyt hurt the Japanese and Chinese economies, leaving Korea(relatively) unscathed. Furthermore, as the Europeans create larger and larger Empires, they come into conflict with japan, China, and Korea. This unifies many East Asian nations against the barbarian Europeans, decreasing the chance of an invasion of Korea.

This is obviously very rough, but I think it's the best way to go. If the Dutch can have a major seaborne Empire, so can the Koreans.
 
I would like to see a POD back in the 3~400 ?? Three Kingdoms, era.
One of the Southern Kingdoms unites the Peninsula instead of the Northern "Korea [sp] ?? " Kingdom.
The Northern Kingdom gets pushed NE into the Amur Mountains/Coast, for several Hundred Years. It then returns and conquers the Peninsula.
Korea then controls the Peninsula and the Sea of Ostok Coast.

This gives Korea the Land and Recourses to remain Independent, and Grow into Power.
 
Well in my timeline, I have Goguryeo (northern Korean kingdom) unite the Korean peninsula, and they take over Manchuria, China, and Tibet.

Baekje, a southern kingdom, was powerful in the third century, but by 300-400, Gwanggaeto the Great managed to come close to uniting the peninsula. He never lost a battle, so I think that this OTL would be more appropriate.
 
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