Greater Indonesian Federation

Warsie

Banned
Okay, we know Indonesia was planning on annexing Malaysia, Papua New Guinea and a bunch of other regions - but due to things like the colonial powers trying to preserve the borders among other things (Konfrontasi etc), that wasn't allowed to happen. Now, how would you see Indonesia become a greater state? Note the POD can be now, or in the "future" from the time of the post I am making (e.g. Malaysia agrees to join the Indonesia Federation as well as New Guinnea, and SOMEHOW E. Timor voluntarily becomes a member.

EDIT: The Phillipines -might- be included but hasnt the Mesitzoization of a lot of the Phillipines by the Spanish (how strong was that?) brought a 'break' in that culture from Indonesia, or not. (Also US influence in Phillipino cultures -stronger and all)
 
Well, Indonesia DIDN'T want to annex PNG. Why did you say that? The country just wanted to unite the entire former Dutch colony of East Indies, which means incorporating West Papua (done in 1960)
About Malaysia, the Konfrontasi was due Soekarno's anti-Western policy, and how Britain gave independence to Malaysia, that really scared him. He thought Malaysia would be used as staging areas by British or American forces to invade Soviet-friendly Indonesia.
If you can somehow make Indonesia adopt a more Islamic values, I think the Mindanao Island (populated by muslims) would have a better chance to willingly join Indonesia.
For East Timor, have Portugal done something really bad there. The Indonesians come in, and make it a Special Administrative Area, which has more autonomy.
 

Warsie

Banned
Oh, I've heard those rumors about Indonesia wanting to annex Papua, and for Malaysia because they are basically the same type of people (Malays). I've heard some "conspiracy theories" apparently that Indonesia wanted to invade Australia too. Have you heard of those rumora?
 
I've noticed that the Indonesians were extremely successful in eliminating the Dutch language from their country. By contrast, the East Timorese still speak Portuguese. Why did the Indonesians completely erase Dutch influence in Indonesia, and especially in Jakarta (ex-Batavia)? How did the Indonesians complete this task?

There are some colonial remnants in Indonesia, namely in the form of religion. A friend of mine is Indonesian, from Jakarta, and is Catholic (perhaps because of Dutch missionary efforts). Nevertheless, it seems that Christianity (Reformed or Catholic) made few inroads into Indonesia. The vast majority of Indonesians are still Muslim.

EDIT: Colonialism and post-colonialism are difficult subjects given the valences of prejudice, violence, and coersion. I can understand why the Indonesians were determined to put Dutch colonialization behind them. Even so, they were extremely successful in erasing colonial influences. Few post-colonial societies that I know of have been able to expel colonial influences like the Indonesians.
 
Okay, we know Indonesia was planning on annexing Malaysia, Papua New Guinea and a bunch of other regions - but due to things like the colonial powers trying to preserve the borders among other things (Konfrontasi etc), that wasn't allowed to happen. Now, how would you see Indonesia become a greater state? Note the POD can be now, or in the "future" from the time of the post I am making (e.g. Malaysia agrees to join the Indonesia Federation as well as New Guinnea, and SOMEHOW E. Timor voluntarily becomes a member.

EDIT: The Phillipines -might- be included but hasnt the Mesitzoization of a lot of the Phillipines by the Spanish (how strong was that?) brought a 'break' in that culture from Indonesia, or not. (Also US influence in Phillipino cultures -stronger and all)

Indonesia is lucky not to have broken up already. The people of East Timor have broken away. The people of East Papua don't want the Indonesians colonizing their country and the people of Aceh have been fighting a seperatist war for years. There have been seperatist movements in the Moluccas and Borneo too.

I am not sure how making Indonesia bigger would work. The challenge for Indonesia is to not collapse into religious and ethnic civil war.
 

Warsie

Banned
I've noticed that the Indonesians were extremely successful in eliminating the Dutch language from their country. By contrast, the East Timorese still speak Portuguese. Why did the Indonesians completely erase Dutch influence in Indonesia, and especially in Jakarta (ex-Batavia)? How did the Indonesians complete this task?

On average the Dutch didnt try to force their religion or beliefs on their colonial subjects - you saw the same in 'New Amsterdam' (conquered by the then-English and made into New York) - the Dutch mainly traded with the natives not conquering them. In Indonesia they were apparently more dickish in their colonialism but they strayed from trying to convert of shit on the cultures so badly. But then again, Malaysia is similar and it was colonized by the UK.

Also dutch didnt interbreed with the natives as badly as the Portugese did. Then again, the Spanish were similar to the Portugese in that manner and Spanish 'mestizoization' of the Phillipines was mainly limited to Manila I think through those 400 years or w/e, compared to "Latin America".....

EDIT: in some Malay/Indonesian islands the colonialists never took full control or entered the forested interior of the larger islands I think.

Indonesia is lucky not to have broken up already. The people of East Timor have broken away. The people of East Papua don't want the Indonesians colonizing their country and the people of Aceh have been fighting a seperatist war for years. There have been seperatist movements in the Moluccas and Borneo too.

I am not sure how making Indonesia bigger would work. The challenge for Indonesia is to not collapse into religious and ethnic civil war.

those are all true. The dominant ethnic group in Indonesia (Javenese?) has tried to get rid of those tendencies by affirmative action programs, or something similar to get non-javanese from the various Indonesian islands in the government. Suharto did something like that correct?
 
Oh, I've heard those rumors about Indonesia wanting to annex Papua, and for Malaysia because they are basically the same type of people (Malays). I've heard some "conspiracy theories" apparently that Indonesia wanted to invade Australia too. Have you heard of those rumora?

Uh, no, Malays are a completely separate ethnic group from the major ethnicities of Indonesia.

As to invading Australia, conspiracy theories are nothing more than delusional fantasies created by people who can't accept reality.


I've noticed that the Indonesians were extremely successful in eliminating the Dutch language from their country. By contrast, the East Timorese still speak Portuguese. Why did the Indonesians completely erase Dutch influence in Indonesia, and especially in Jakarta (ex-Batavia)? How did the Indonesians complete this task?

They did'nt eliminate it, in fact their are quite a few words derived from Dutch.

The reason that Dutch itself is'nt spoken by alot of people in Indonesia is because the Dutch never really tried to 'civilize' Indonesia like other colonial powers did to various places and thus were more than happy to allow the various groups to speak their native languages.


There are some colonial remnants in Indonesia, namely in the form of religion. A friend of mine is Indonesian, from Jakarta, and is Catholic (perhaps because of Dutch missionary efforts). Nevertheless, it seems that Christianity (Reformed or Catholic) made few inroads into Indonesia. The vast majority of Indonesians are still Muslim.

Their might actually be more Catholics if it was'nt for the Dutch.
It was originally the Portuguese who introduced (and went about converting people) to Catholicism, however once the Dutch took over this stopped, as the VOC basically banned Catholicism.

As a result Flores, which was claimed and partially administered by Portugal until the 1850's, is the only part of Indonesia where Catholics exist in large numbers.
 
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As a result Flores, which was claimed and partially administered by Portugal until the 1850's, is the only part of Indonesia where Catholics exist in large numbers.
The southern Maluccans also contain a lot of Catholics, I believe at least half. A reason why they prefer(ed) independence over becoming part of Indonesia.
 
The southern Maluccans also contain a lot of Catholics, I believe at least half. A reason why they prefer(ed) independence over becoming part of Indonesia.

The Malukus do have alot of Christians, yes, but I think they're Protestant, not Catholic.
 

Rush Tarquin

Gone Fishin'
Uh, no, Malays are a completely seperate ethnic group from the major ethnicities of Indonesia.

He was presumably referring to the cultural sphere concept of a Malay World or Nusantara or Maphilindo or whatever other manifestation the idea has assumed over time. Though the people in PNG don't even fit that very broad, and largely cultural, conception of a 'Malay race' (as opposed to the ethnicity).

On the topic, Sukarno included internationalism in the Pancasila, but this was more about supporting anti-colonial efforts than the expansion of the Indonesian state to, well, everywhere, as I've seen claimed in 70s Australian history textbooks. Also, Sukarno supported a North Borneo Federation rather than making claims for a a direct annexation, though it's up for debate whether he planned to annex it at a later date.

In fact, the only territorial expansion beyond the initial claim of West Papua by the Indonesian state was under Suharto, and not with the same ideological justification obviously.
 
The reason that Dutch itself is'nt spoken by alot of people in Indonesia is because the Dutch never really tried to 'civilize' Indonesia like other colonial powers did to various places and thus were more than happy to allow the various groups to speak their native languages.
Well, never, there was the Ethical Polic, which was just half-arsed enough (because of economic factors and political unwillingness) that it only gave the indepence-seekers the education and intellectual prowess to do so. It's true that linguistic policy was never enforced as such, though one shouldn't underestimate the factor that divide et impera played therein.
An entire group of islands full of opressed people speaking the same language isn't exactly conducive.

For the record, there was some 'interbreeding' in the cities , but the resulting people went to the Netherlands post-independence (much like the Abonese and the Indonesian Chinese), bringing along their excellent cuisine. :)
 
Their might actually be more Catholics if it was'nt for the Dutch.
It was originally the Portuguese who introduced (and went about converting people) to Catholicism, however once the Dutch took over this stopped, as the VOC basically banned Catholicism.

Was the ban on Catholicism a proximate result of the Eighty Years War?
 
I think the Philippines can be divided to the major islands groups in indonesia with them having their own working/common language because before the divide and conquer the people in the respective island groups themselves don't distinguish themselves and consider themselves as 'one people'.

Mindanao is actually more "Spanish" than the northern part of the Philippines.
 
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