Greater Greece after World War I

Markus

Banned
Why doesn't anyone want to liberate Peloponnese from Achaean occupation?

Life is unfair and my remark was a bit ironic. A greek politician from 1918 would not use the verb conquer, wouldn´t he? ;)

The British also pilfer away some older ships to the Greeks as the Washington treaty starts. The Greeks are not part of it, but are so much in the Entente/Allied camp that the Brits can count on them in any confrontation in the eastern Med anyway. They probably get HMS Erin and HMS Agincourt and some cruisers.

I recently learned the WNT banned the sale of each and every of the signatories warships that already existed. :mad:

Article XVIII Each of the Contracting Powers undertakes not to dispose by gift, sale or any mode of transfer of any vessel of war in such a manner that such vessel may become a vessel of war in the Navy of any foreign Power.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
The basic problem with the assumptions about Greece in Konstantinyye is that it tends to be treated comparably to Serbian war demands: however, it's more akin to polish war demands. For a short time, the polish independence committee was claiming Pomerania, Silesia, East Prussia, Lithuania and Brandenburg along with pieces of Slovakia on the principle that they had been, shortly, Polish, in some cases 1200 years ago; the entente quickly dissuaded them of that nonsense. Yes Thrace used to belong to the byzantines, except the only country with any Byzantine nostalgia left was busy having it bled by communists and angry peasants. Everything else was politics.

The Serbs were claiming lands which were arguably south slavic and the western power were just betting on the wild chance that Yugoslavia as a country might not fall apart within the decade. Ditto for Czechoslovakia or Romania gaining Transylvania (which, while it had saxon and magyar minorities in concentrated regions, was still majority romanian).

Support for Greece in the west, however was not the old 19th century hellenophile nostalgia: that died in that century, it was geopolitics. And an easily russian or german-influenced state on the Med with control over the straits was not going to happen, ever, especially if it involved being accessory to a genocide and when they had a much friendlier government in Ankara they had no reason to alienate.
 

Markus

Banned
Remember the saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

Greece and Turkey were very long time enemies and Turkey joind the Central Powers in 1914. If the Greeks had acted like all the others, they would have entered the war on the Entente´s side soon later and gotten thier share of the booty after the war as the friendlier government would have been in Athens.

And one last thing about war crimes, massacres, ethnic cleansing and genocide. The Greeks were not the only ones who did take the gloves off and such shit was also hardly a new thing in the Balkans.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Remember the saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

Greece and Turkey were very long time enemies and Turkey joind the Central Powers in 1914. If the Greeks had acted like all the others, they would have entered the war on the Entente´s side soon later and gotten thier share of the booty after the war as the friendlier government would have been in Athens.

And one last thing about war crimes, massacres, ethnic cleansing and genocide. The Greeks were not the only ones who did take the gloves off and such shit was also hardly a new thing in the Balkans.

It's a stupid saying which few people really use in politics and it only really worked in WW2 with a lot of mistrust and misunderstandings.

In the situation it doesn't work, the Greeks were a wild card and not pro-Entente. They were alternately pro-Russian or pro-German but pro-British sentiment was ultimately weak. Besides, the greeks are also going to be pissing off Italy, who is already the friend, and the republic of Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire, just as the republic of Austria is not the Austro-Hungarian empire (in fact, to a large extent, it seems that the french saw Hungary more as its successor than Austria, considering how they tried to contain it: Turkey was also part of the nations expected to contain Bulgaria, Greece couldn't and likely wouldn't have without getting expansionist, and were a risk neither the french nor the british were willing to take and for good reason; also, it may have happened in the 19th century, but the mindset in 1919 was against it).
 
Markus, except you would need to take a politically divided(to the point of paralysis) nation and somehow turn it into a completely unified nation which races in to the war as soon as possible.

OTL, with Greek entry into the war and several hundred thousand(!) Entente troops and generous material support the only accomplishment by Greece backed by the Entente's Army of the Orient, which outnumbered the entire Greek Army, was a single victory over Bulgaria in the last weeks of the war.

If Greece enters earlier do they do better or do they suffer hideous losses much earlier, perhaps becoming a secondary target of the German offensive which took Serbia out of the war and which now claims Salonika and northern Greece(only held by Athens since 1912)?



Italy entered the war before Greece and paid a much higher price, bringing much more military power than Greece could dream of, but I don't seem to recall Italy getting all it wanted or even all it was specifically promised by the British and French. I'm not saying they should have, only that Italy came closer to the specifics you gave than Greece and did not benefit accordingly.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
If Greece enters earlier do they do better or do they suffer hideous losses much earlier, perhaps becoming a secondary target of the German offensive which took Serbia out of the war and which now claims Salonika and northern Greece(only held by Athens since 1912)?

I hadn't thought of that, Greece knocked out with Salonika occupied could kill or delay the Macedonian campaign a hell of a lot, and likely means they're now forced to launch from Athens to fight their way to Serbia when the time comes to do it.
 

Markus

Banned
In the situation it doesn't work, the Greeks were a wild card and not pro-Entente. They were alternately pro-Russian or pro-German but pro-British sentiment was ultimately weak. Besides, the greeks are also going to be pissing off Italy, who is already the friend, ...

I know what the Greeks did IOTL, my point was to show an alternate path based using the long time hostility between Greece and Turkey as a starting point. Italy, Bulgaria and Romania had old scores to settle and/or saw an opportunity for an easy victory. Greece was quite the exception IMO.
 
And that would be horrendous for the Greeks AND Turks in the long run
To true. Odds are that when Turkey move against Greece in World War II there's going to be a lot of angry Turks who lost relatives to the ethnic cleansing, and now they have a chance for revenge. Then, assuming World War II ends in an allied victory, you get to deal with the Greek reprisals to the Turkish reprisals...

Nobody is going to come out of that in good shape.
 
Besides the Greek economy and military can barely hope to support OTL's wank borders, let alone territory in Anatolia and an angry Turkey wanting revenge.
 
To true. Odds are that when Turkey move against Greece in World War II there's going to be a lot of angry Turks who lost relatives to the ethnic cleansing, and now they have a chance for revenge. Then, assuming World War II ends in an allied victory, you get to deal with the Greek reprisals to the Turkish reprisals...

Nobody is going to come out of that in good shape.

And I doubt that with an Allied victory that any Turk in an ATL 2010 is going to be willing to feel shameful of any action done by their ancestors to the Greeks and vice versa. And forget about WWII, God knows what would happen in Cyprus and the Balkans with any remaining Turkish populations.
 

Don Grey

Banned
Is thanks giving the year around holiday in this site? Because it had been a while since i saw turkey carved up in a manner resulting in genocide on a hitlerin scale i had almost began to miss it.

As for the artical its wishfull thinking bording on pure insanity. Meaning its not well thought of at all which is an understatement. The greeks tried something smaller in the otl and spectactularly failed.

Doesnt the greater greece crawed get tired of repeating the same stuff over and over again because the opposition sure as hell gets tired of rebutling the EXACT same arguments over and over and over again.

To put it simply.
Greece does not have the compasity to accomplish the megala idea let alone the proposal in the artical. Lets just say they did accomplish it with the help of god.There would be more non-greeks then greeks in there new empire. They would be pissing of everyone around them as would the entente (so why would they help).They would also be killing millions of people.So all there neighbours would join the axis. By world war 2 before the allies can come for aid there wouldnt be a greek LEFT in greater greece. Some things just cant be forgotten or forgiven. As you can see this isnt a very good endgame.

Here is a link to the latest megala idea thread. It explaines why it was a spectactular failure. With the knowlagde learned from there you can apply it to this and see how its a horrible idea.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=164981&highlight=sevres


I just got a noval idea. I suggest that the greater greece fans do a tl in the asb section where this or the megala idea is achived or this artical. But there are rules. No one that has knowladge of history and harbours the dreaded duo of logic and reason cant comment on that thread. I support this because i think this will finaly get it out of there system. In there thread they can conque... i mean liberate anatolia of 848 years of occupation and ofcourse liberate istanb... i mean constantinople from 466 years of occupation.
 
Markus, you hit the nail on the head just now.

It was because Greece did not have an axe to grind that helped delay Greek involvment in WWI, until the Entente left them little real choice.


Actually the scary question about Greater Greece and the WWII Turkey in the Axis revenge is whether the Axis do lose the war. If Hitler decides the opportunity to hit the British Empire on two fronts is too good to waste and delays Barbarossa by a year the British will likely be out of the Middle East and the Med, which might bring down Churchill's government. If the USSR has to face a new front against Turkey and has no allies...:eek:
 
Markus, you hit the nail on the head just now.

It was because Greece did not have an axe to grind that helped delay Greek involvment in WWI, until the Entente left them little real choice.


Actually the scary question about Greater Greece and the WWII Turkey in the Axis revenge is whether the Axis do lose the war. If Hitler decides the opportunity to hit the British Empire on two fronts is too good to waste and delays Barbarossa by a year the British will likely be out of the Middle East and the Med, which might bring down Churchill's government. If the USSR has to face a new front against Turkey and has no allies...:eek:



Wel mate nice knowing you, prepare for massive genocide.:(
 
If the USSR has to face a new front against Turkey and has no allies...:eek:

As much as I am a lepidopterophobe...I am quite certain that one year can't really hurt the USSR's war readiness. You can't assume the Germans will get their local superiorities just like OTL a whole year later.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I know what the Greeks did IOTL, my point was to show an alternate path based using the long time hostility between Greece and Turkey as a starting point. Italy, Bulgaria and Romania had old scores to settle and/or saw an opportunity for an easy victory. Greece was quite the exception IMO.

Not having the king die just makes greece pro-german... That monkey business is not a POD where it can somehow kick the Turks out of continental Europe with a non-existent economy, a near complete dependency on french and british arms and an enemy that's angry, trained, and just out of 4 years of war.
 

Markus

Banned
Markus, you hit the nail on the head just now.

It was because Greece did not have an axe to grind that helped delay Greek involvment in WWI, until the Entente left them little real choice.

:confused: During the war of indepandance killing the other side´s civillians started and it was also done during the balkan wars. I think it was the rift between the pro-german royalists and the pro-entente republikans(?) that kept Greece out of the war. Change the king or his view and Greece could have been in the war in 1915. Instead of landing at Gallipolli the exped. force goes to Greece and advances over land against Bulgaria and Turkey. how does that sound?
 
Markus, unfortunately it took years before the Allied force reached the levels of 1918 and this leaves not only the Bulgarian and Turkish forces available and in much better shape in terms of morale(in Bulgaria's case) to face them.

It also does nothing to erase the defensive advantage which the British commanders at Gallipoli were so oblivious to.:(

Most important is that Germany launched a series of operations in 1915 aimed at taking key salients of territory and trying to knock smaller powers out of the war, Serbia most successfully, and I have to suspect that Greece or the area around Salonika would become another of those operations.

There's also the problem that Greek claims were rivals to Italy in southern Albania and openly hostile in terms of the Dodecanese. If Italy gets the idea that the Central Powers might be able to offer something better...
 
Top