Ok, so this is my first thread... Excuse the rookiness...
WI a different course of history had resulted in the present territory of Poland becoming Germanised and eventually being incorporated into a greater German state?
I am sure this subject had been discussed before, I have actually found several threads very close to this one, but I would like to try a different point of view here.
Most threads dealing with the hypothetical Greater Germany focused on the events of the -relatively- recent past. WI Prussia and Austria had been allowed to keep the Polish lands gained after the Third Partition? WI Germany won WW2?
Of course these were the historical situations in which german dominance was in fact established over Poland. However, I don't believe that in the cases above there would have been enough time for a thorough assimilation of such a large nation as the polish. The czechs were not assimilated even though they lived within the HRE for hundreds of years. The polish nation had a separate language, a culture of its own and most importantly a strong historical identity. No scenario similar to the Irish language shift or the Occitan acculturation in France seems plausible, because in those cases the Irish and the Occitan speakers had been living for hundreds of years under English and French dominance and had a different attitude towards issues of language. The poles would have instead started uprisings periodically- as in fact they did during the 19th century- and it would have probably taken centuries of harsh repression in order for any significant assimilation to take place, especially in a nationalist era. But that is hardly imaginable in a 21st century Europe, with or without a Nazi victory.
So I'm thinking if there is ANY plausible scenario of massive Germanisation then it must diverge from real history a very long time ago.
1. WI the lands inhabited by germanic people around the 9th century would have extended somewhat more to the east? Say not just until the Elbe, but all the way to the Oder? It is not that hard to imagine that the convoluted history of migrations could have resulted in a slightly different outcome. WI as a result of this the battles against the Slaves, the Wendish Crusade, the Ostsiedlung several centuries later etc. would have been sort of moved more towards the east, and thus ultimately bringing larger areas under german control/influence (possibly the greater part of present Poland)?
2. Is it immaginable that the Slaves on the present territory of Poland fail to establish a state of their own in the 10th century? Or even that they remain pagan until much later, like ex. the Lithuanians? And that as a result of this they gradually become absorbed into the HRE, maybe after a Crusade against paganism and/or falling to expansionist ambitions of various German states just like it happened to, say, Polabians, only on a larger scale? How far-fetched does this seem to you?
3. WI a Polish state IS established & baptised and the point of divergence is after Boleslaw III Wrymouth divides it among his sons, ushering in an era of fragmentation that was to last two centuries? WI the Polish state never recovered from this and was instead occupied & incorporated into the HRE, just like it happened to its western parts, Silesia & Pomerania? Is a fragmented Poland imaginable within the HRE?
4. Is a Kingdom of Poland, analogous to the Kingdom of Bohemia, imaginable within the HRE? And if so, could a Lithuanian Kingdom, extending from the Baltic, through the Dnieper basin to the Black Sea perform the historical role of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
And of course any combination of the above...?
So... I am very curious about what you think of this.
WI a different course of history had resulted in the present territory of Poland becoming Germanised and eventually being incorporated into a greater German state?
I am sure this subject had been discussed before, I have actually found several threads very close to this one, but I would like to try a different point of view here.
Most threads dealing with the hypothetical Greater Germany focused on the events of the -relatively- recent past. WI Prussia and Austria had been allowed to keep the Polish lands gained after the Third Partition? WI Germany won WW2?
Of course these were the historical situations in which german dominance was in fact established over Poland. However, I don't believe that in the cases above there would have been enough time for a thorough assimilation of such a large nation as the polish. The czechs were not assimilated even though they lived within the HRE for hundreds of years. The polish nation had a separate language, a culture of its own and most importantly a strong historical identity. No scenario similar to the Irish language shift or the Occitan acculturation in France seems plausible, because in those cases the Irish and the Occitan speakers had been living for hundreds of years under English and French dominance and had a different attitude towards issues of language. The poles would have instead started uprisings periodically- as in fact they did during the 19th century- and it would have probably taken centuries of harsh repression in order for any significant assimilation to take place, especially in a nationalist era. But that is hardly imaginable in a 21st century Europe, with or without a Nazi victory.
So I'm thinking if there is ANY plausible scenario of massive Germanisation then it must diverge from real history a very long time ago.
1. WI the lands inhabited by germanic people around the 9th century would have extended somewhat more to the east? Say not just until the Elbe, but all the way to the Oder? It is not that hard to imagine that the convoluted history of migrations could have resulted in a slightly different outcome. WI as a result of this the battles against the Slaves, the Wendish Crusade, the Ostsiedlung several centuries later etc. would have been sort of moved more towards the east, and thus ultimately bringing larger areas under german control/influence (possibly the greater part of present Poland)?
2. Is it immaginable that the Slaves on the present territory of Poland fail to establish a state of their own in the 10th century? Or even that they remain pagan until much later, like ex. the Lithuanians? And that as a result of this they gradually become absorbed into the HRE, maybe after a Crusade against paganism and/or falling to expansionist ambitions of various German states just like it happened to, say, Polabians, only on a larger scale? How far-fetched does this seem to you?
3. WI a Polish state IS established & baptised and the point of divergence is after Boleslaw III Wrymouth divides it among his sons, ushering in an era of fragmentation that was to last two centuries? WI the Polish state never recovered from this and was instead occupied & incorporated into the HRE, just like it happened to its western parts, Silesia & Pomerania? Is a fragmented Poland imaginable within the HRE?
4. Is a Kingdom of Poland, analogous to the Kingdom of Bohemia, imaginable within the HRE? And if so, could a Lithuanian Kingdom, extending from the Baltic, through the Dnieper basin to the Black Sea perform the historical role of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
And of course any combination of the above...?
So... I am very curious about what you think of this.