Greater Dutch Australia?

Presuming a Dutch claim on *Australia & a change driving Boers out of the Cape Colony, how much of the OTL DEI, Australia, & islands of the southwest Pacific could be taken? How likely is it this becomes an independent nation?
 
If you compare the following maps,

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there seems to be an connection between the extent of Dutch discoveries and the original British claims, which seem boil down to "everything the Dutch cannot claim plus Van Diemen's Land".
 
Have the Dutch explorers (especially Tasman) discover the rich NSW before cook, and they might connect Australia with there Indonesian colonies. And make Dutch navy surpass the British.

If they had all of Australia, it would strengthen their position in the pasific, and the south pacific would be divided between them and France
 
bellerophon said:
Have the Dutch explorers (especially Tasman) discover the rich NSW before cook
I'm thinking Tasman originally claims all *Australia in 1742 (?).
bellerophon said:
and they might connect Australia with there Indonesian colonies.
And so the center of gravity is still Batavia, not *Oz?
bellerophon said:
If they had all of Australia, it would strengthen their position in the pasific, and the south pacific would be divided between them and France
I take it, then, there's some contention between the Dutch & French for control of the Solomons, Bismarcks, Marianas, & Gilberts, none of which go to Britain? Or do you see an eventual 3-way fight?
 
The problem is Holland is not powerful enough to keep such an enormous claim. The first war it loses in Europe this claim is going to be either completely dismissed or watered down. This may not necessarily go all Britain's way either, Holland could be forced to cede parts of Australia to France during the Revolutionary or Napoleonic Wars etc.
 
The problem with any Dutch Australia is finding a reason for them to be interested in the place at all. The Dutch knew about Australia for over 150 years before the British started colonising the place, but never made a serious attempt to colonise it. There

The Dutch East India Company (VOC) were interested in places where they could make a profit, not in planting settler colonies. This applies as much to the east coast of Australia as it does to the west coast. There's no-one there for the VOC to set up trading posts with. The gold and gems are a long way inland and won't be found by casual visitors.

The PoD needs to be something which makes the VOC (or some other Dutch group) interested in planting a settler colony in what is from their perspective a godforsaken wasteland. If you can find a reason for that, then the Dutch could have quite a significant presence in Australia, though holding the whole continent may be beyond them if there's competition from other European powers.
 
The problem with any Dutch Australia is finding a reason for them to be interested in the place at all. The Dutch knew about Australia for over 150 years before the British started colonising the place, but never made a serious attempt to colonise it. There

The Dutch East India Company (VOC) were interested in places where they could make a profit, not in planting settler colonies. This applies as much to the east coast of Australia as it does to the west coast. There's no-one there for the VOC to set up trading posts with. The gold and gems are a long way inland and won't be found by casual visitors.

The PoD needs to be something which makes the VOC (or some other Dutch group) interested in planting a settler colony in what is from their perspective a godforsaken wasteland. If you can find a reason for that, then the Dutch could have quite a significant presence in Australia, though holding the whole continent may be beyond them if there's competition from other European powers.
The Australian West-Coast is very close to the sailing routes the Dutch used to go to Indonesia. I could see the VOC starting a supply station there, just like they had on the Cape Colony. I consider a Dutch west Australia to be relatively likely.

The problem is Holland is not powerful enough to keep such an enormous claim. The first war it loses in Europe this claim is going to be either completely dismissed or watered down. This may not necessarily go all Britain's way either, Holland could be forced to cede parts of Australia to France during the Revolutionary or Napoleonic Wars etc.

You are right. I don't think he Netherlands was big or populated enough to keep all of Australia, even if they were interested (which they weren't OTL). I think that a Dutch Western Australia is certainly possible. I could, maybe, see a Dutch Northern Australia as part of the Dutch East Indies colony (although the problem is that Northern Australia is for the most part useless desert). Eastern Australia? No, the Netherlands is going to leave it mainly empty. It is not something they are interested in and too far away. Even if the Dutch claim it, in the end they are going to lose it to countries who would want to do anything with it (I could even see the Dutch sell the claim to other countries).
 
The Australian West-Coast is very close to the sailing routes the Dutch used to go to Indonesia. I could see the VOC starting a supply station there, just like they had on the Cape Colony. I consider a Dutch west Australia to be relatively likely.

And yet they had 150+ years unopposed to set up a victualling station in West Australia, and never showed the slightest interest. They knew the land was there, they explored it to see whether there was anything that might be worthwhile, and decided that there was no point.

Besides the lack of any native peoples worth trading with, the relative closeness of West Australia to the East Indies may actually have worked against it. By the time you get to Western Australia, you're already most of the way there. It's not midway in between, like the Cape or Mauritius, it's almost there, so a resupply station is of much lower value.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a Dutch West Australia is impossible. But it's not one of these random flukes that the Dutch never settled there. They had pretty damn good reasons for it. Whatever the PoD is that makes the Dutch settle there, it has to be some change to make them decide that colonising "New Holland" is worth the expense.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a Dutch West Australia is impossible. But it's not one of these random flukes that the Dutch never settled there. They had pretty damn good reasons for it. Whatever the PoD is that makes the Dutch settle there, it has to be some change to make them decide that colonising "New Holland" is worth the expense.
True. You need a pretty good POD for it to happen. I think western Australia is the most reasonable place for a Dutch Australian colony, but you need a good reason for it to happen. I believe I used a shipwreck that caused people to settle there and stay as a POD. Maybe you could use the Australian gold as a reason. Maybe some weird religious colonists decide to settle there (although you need a good reason why they won't go to the Cape Colony or the New Netherlands). I can see various reasons for a Dutch colony to arise there. Less likely things have happened in the past.
 
There are several parts not much discussed.

A) Much of the reason why, I have guessed from readings, that the Dutch were indifferent to Australia was it was too close to Indonesia Spice Islands and too far away from any developed trade possibilities. They wanted the nearly all male Dutch contingent to work till they died of disease, which normally took less than a decade. It took too long to get them there, at great expense. Why provide them with a much safer (no malaria) region either Australia or highland Java or elsewhere when the spice islands is where you can whore and drink your way to oblivious, with great benefit to the VOC.

South Africa Cape Colony was a way station to the spice trade, and an exception to the idea. Taiwan's brief existence was of the sugar trade and limited settlement. Or as far as I have understood the situation.

B) Some islands avail themselves. Rottnest island off of what is now Perth is small but convenient to wayward ships blown off course (some wrecks of the Dutch trade are still being excavated). Kangaroo Island is/was huge, some 60 miles long if memory serves and 30 miles wide, off of Adelaide South Australia. Also of note are the Flinders and King Islands, inbetween the Kangaroo and Rottnest sizes.

All were completely uninhabited for about 3,000 years since the natives died out (inbreeding and low population base) after the glacial ice age sea level rise. Tasmania had about 3,000 indigenous, which is cutting it close and partly a possibility why they died out quickly.

Oddly, the Aborigines did have boats to reach the islands just before the time the Europeans first arrived, as the evidence shows some kind of economic link from the Indonesian islands had spread simple craft all the way around the coasts except Tasmania by about 1550. They used them for exploiting the fishing better than the reed boats (?) which only had a 5 mile or so range.

B) Foreign occupation of Dutch hard won gains is an issue, a chicken or egg situation. Without resupply, trouble. With resupply, an easy mark. In the Mediterranean the islanders moved all towns ten miles inland because of pirates. The hindsight option is to have a interior settled, like in present day Alice Springs or Murray River basin. Just after a drought, where the native population was diminished, would be the time. No one would get out tough ranchers. A flock of goats and other quickly reproducing animals would start things out, but sheep and cattle are the long term tickets. Pigs breed real fast and can be fed all sorts of unusual animals like Kangaroo carcasses or cattails.
The Dutch in the Cape got the ax by cutting off the port, and New York/New Amsterdam was almost nothing but a port.
 
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pompejus said:
I could even see the Dutch sell the claim to other countries.
Could you believe it changing hands several times, & ending up back in Dutch control in time for the Boers? The idea being, ultimately, the Boers want to be the h*ll away from everybody...
pompejus said:
you need a good reason why they won't go to the Cape Colony or the New Netherlands. I can see various reasons for a Dutch colony to arise there.
What I had in mind was, they're forced out of the Cape Colony by a massive British influx after the ARW (which goes a bit differently...). They're already halfway to *Oz, they know there's damn all but empty space there...but they've heard there's at least one good harbor suitable for a settlement.
 
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katchen

Banned
The reason why the Dutch settled the Cape of Good Hope was pure accident. Van Riebeck's ship was wrecked there in 1652, forcing the surviving castaways to spend a year down there and cultivate the land and discover that the soil was fertile and the climate one where crops could be grown. Prior to then European ships of various nations might land there and even use the cape as a sort of post office--but they did not believe one could live there--because the natives did not grow crops but more importantly, there were no trees. Just a fymbos scrub. That's why Bartolemeo Dias did not settle the Cape way back in 1488.
If a BriA lot of different TLs could branch out depending on whose ships get wrecked on the Cape and when. If Bartolemeo DIas's ship gets wrecked in 1488 but his crew survives while he and a few crew members make it up the coast to Sao Tome, discovering diamonds on the Namib Coast along the way, there will be a Portuguese colony at the Cape before Columbus sails in 1492. If a British ship gets shipwrecked the same way, a British colony on the Cape. Ditto a Danish ship. Or a French ship. In any of these cases, Southwestern Australia will look a lot more attractive to the VOC as a way station for Dutch sailors. :cool:
Now turn the globe toward you so that the Antarctic faces you and measure out distances. To get to the Cape of Good Hope, sailors must cross the Atlantic, sail along the Brazillian Coast to at least Rio de Janiero before sailing into the open ocean, cross the Horse Latitudes where they may be becalmed and finally catch the Westerlies. If one is lucky, one can make the Cape from Rio in about a month and Western Australia in another month. Which is about when scurvy is about ready to start setting in. :(
And that is why the Dutch were so eager to take over Brazil in the Mid 17th Century and why the Cape was so useful to the Dutch.
Now change the TL to one in which the British have discovered that the Cape is fertile. The British East India Company has discovered by accident that there is good land at the caCape that it can sell concessions to and make money on. And in doing so, keep ththeir competitor the VOC away. So they sell a concession at Table Bay to one group of PuDissenters, Saldanha Bay to another group, Mossel Bay to a third, Algoa Bay (Port Elizabeth to a fourth and the Great Fish River (East London) to a fifth. And thereby make it so that the Dutch can't use the Cape without paying at least a stiff fee--when England and the Netherlands are friendly). That's a real problem on the return trip, since the Cape of Good Hope is notorious for unfavorable winds for ships trying to round it from the East. It can take a month or so to round Cape of Good Hope, while the crew gets sicker and sicker with scurvy. And they don't know how to preserve citrus fruits yet.
So the Dutch may be intrested in going round the world the other way. To the East Coast of Australia from SW Australia. One month and mind the shipwreck coast east of Adelaide! To New Zealand. Another two weeks to a month. From there to the West Coast of Patagonia or Tierra Del Fuego. Less than two months if you drop down to 55 deggrees and if you don't miss the left turn at Cape Horn and turn into the Flying Dutchman!
Then another few weeks to the Rio Negro, or White Bay (Bahia Blanca, Argentina). So with a series of way stations, the VOC can safely keep crews alive and healthy using the powerful Southern Westerlies for a one way East to West circumnavigation of the world before turning back North home to the Netherlands. Cumbersome, but THE BLOODY BRITISH DON"T GIVE THEM ANOTHER CHOICE!
It's the colony at Bahia Blanca that makes SW Australia work. Because one month across the Atlantic and one month across the Indian nonstop is two months from Bahia Blanca to SW Australia. A week or so in port consuming fruit with vitamins and another month to Batavia or Kupang or Makassar (maybe Makassar is more conveniently located for VOC headquarters reached via the Lombok Strait from "Stirling Bay" this TL. Then back to SW Australia, a stop on New Zealand (probably at Invvecargill, since they can pick up sealskins there) and another 8-10 weeks back to Bahia Blanca. Then home. It works.And it gives the Dutch control of everything south of 30 degrees South except South Africa.
Now
 
katchen said:
it gives the Dutch control of everything south of 30 degrees South except South Africa
:cool::cool: That would change the naval balance of power, too, wouldn't it? It would change the European balance, too, AIUI.
 

katchen

Banned
It sure might. And all because the British get to the Cape just a few years before the Dutch and force them to use, really use, the Southern Westerlies and the resources of the lands that border around the Southern Ocean.
PS: A Spanish Australia and New Guinea discovered by accident by Magellan could be a very interesting TL
 
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