Greater Denmark with Norway in 1864

Im interested in the 1864 conflict between the Denmark vs. Prussia+ German Confederation and the Austrain-Hungarian Empire. The Schleswig-Holstein wars are relativeley seldom covered in this forum. In Denmark, they are part of the National collective memory. One reason, Denmark lost was the lack of manpower of the small country. In 1864 they possessed Danish West India. What if they didn´t loose Norway in 1814 at the Congress of Vienna ? What amount of supply and ressources they could add ?
 
Interesting. I always wondered why, post-1900, they were not returned to Denmark after either WWI or WWII. When did effective Germanization become complete, if ever there? And in your TL WI, what role could Sweden or possibly Russia play?
 
Probably wouldn't have helped too much. Denmarks population in 1860 was roughly 1.6 million, and Norway's was only 1.5 million. Put it together and you have a population of only 3.1 million.

Contrast Sweden with a population of 4 million in 1860[1] and Prussia alone with a population of over 20 million.

The men and resources supplied would not be substantial, and unless this improved the Danish strategy they would still lose the war. Denmark had an absolutely awful problem when it came to planning the war here.

[1] Not entirely sure if that includes Norway too, but even if it does they still have a population of both nations combined.
 
Norway might not add all that much, but given the context of the time, it might not take all that much. Austria and Prussia are hugely superior to Denmark in manpower and industry, but that advantage only counts if you have a long war. A long conflict might well see interventrion by other powers, and Denmark, though driven out of Jylland, would still be able to defend the islands and Norway due to its naval dominance. The loss might simply not look as catastrophic when your territory ends at the Polar Circle rather than Skagen.

Interesting. I always wondered why, post-1900, they were not returned to Denmark after either WWI or WWII. When did effective Germanization become complete, if ever there?

Schleswig-Holstien was majority German-speaking from at least the 1100s onwards. It had come to Denmark through title inheritance and was formally separate from the kingdom itself. For the longest time, that had not been a problem and the court in Copenhagen spoke Low German as easily as Danish. That changed in the 19th century. In fact, part of the reason for the uprising in 1848 and the subsequent war was a Danish effort to standardise its administration and impose the Danish language on a Germanophone population (though it probably would have happened anyway).

After WWI, North Schleswig, the only area with a clear Danish-speaking majority, was returned to Denmark. The significant Danish minority in South Schleswig was given extensive rights (though it was not until 1945 that they could feel reasonably secure in them). Holstein never had more than a small minority of Danish speakers.
 
Following WW1, Denmark was actually offered all of Scheswig, but they decided to put it to a vote, and draw the present-day borders roughly among the lines of which parts voted to move to Denmark, and which parts preferred to stay with Germany

1024px-Abstimmung-schleswig-1920.png
 
Interesting. I always wondered why, post-1900, they were not returned to Denmark after either WWI or WWII. When did effective Germanization become complete, if ever there? And in your TL WI, what role could Sweden or possibly Russia play?

Well, the great powers were not pleased with Denmark for violating the Treaty of London, even Scandinavian countries like Sweden didn´t show the solidarity one could expect (although there had been a few Swedish and Norwegian volunteers, mostly carrier officers who sought for an adventure).

The commander of the famous Dybbol battery, Claude du Plat (who had been killed there) once served with the Russian army in the Caucasus campaign. Maybe somehow somebody like him could have convinced Russian diplomats to take action ( because Schleswig Holstein is the first step of Prussian aggression for an united expansionist Empire in Mitteleuropa which could be a threat for the Russian Emprire, too) and quietly move a few thousand Russian troops in Danish uniforms (an official intervention could start a war with Britain) to Denmark through Sweden.
 
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The commander of the famous Dybbol battery, Claude du Plat (who had been killed there) once served with the Russian army in the Caucasus campaign. Maybe somehow somebody like him could have convinced Russian diplomats to take action ( because Schleswig Holstein is the first step of Prussian aggression for an united expansionist Empire in Mitteleuropa which could be a threat for the Russian Emprire, too) and quietly move a few thousand Russian troops in Danish uniforms (an official intervention could start a war with Britain) to Denmark through Sweden.


Russia was wrapped up with Poland and the Black Sea. She was still in process of finishing off the Polish Revolt, so the last thing she wanted was trouble on her Prussian or Austrian borders - least of all while the two were allied.

Her other preoccupation was the clauses in the Peace of 1856 which banned her from keeping a fleet on the Black Sea. She finally denounced them in 1870. The Elbe Duchies were way down her priority list. Iirc, as far back as 1848, a Russian Crown Council had decided that the Duchies weren't a priority for her.

As for German unification, the Russians' worry was that this might take place under Austria. Like most people in 1864, they viewed Prussia as the weaker of the German powers, and were inclined to support her as a check on Austria. Nobody (except the Prussian liberals) feared Bismarck at this point in time.
 
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Russia was wrapped up with Poland and the Baltic. She was still in process of finishing off the Polish Revolt, so the last thing she wanted was trouble on her Prussian or Austrian borders - least of all while the two were allied.

Her other preoccupation was the clauses in the Peace of 1856 which banned her from keeping a fleet on the Black Sea. She finally denounced them in 1870. The Elbe Duchies were way down her priority list. Iirc, as far back as 1848, a Russian Crown Council had decided that the Duchies weren't a priority for her.

As for German unification, the Russians' worry was that this might take place under Austria. Like most people in 1864, they viewed Prussia as the weaker of the German powers, and were inclined to support her as a check on Austria. Nobody (except the Prussian liberals) feared Bismarck at this point in time.

Congratulations on bringing up the Giant Elephant that ACW Alt-histories all seem to ignore.

Europe had more than enough concerns of its own without getting involved in any other crises.

For example, Tsouras seemed to completely forget about Russia's pre-occupation with the Polish Revolt when he wrote his latest offering.
 
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