It's a long shot...
Very much so....but thats why its alternate history.....even long shots can be explored
Greater Croatia
- Thread starter Hrvatskiwi
- Start date
Very much so....but thats why its alternate history.....even long shots can be explored
This would depend on which POD, a POD in 1197/1102 will have different butterflies than a POD from 1377 to 1463 (kingdom of Bosnia).
Well....1377, the Hungarians were still recovering from the Mongol invasions, so they would be in no position to project their authority beyond their immediate borders.....opportunity for Croatia to forge their own state and unite with Bosnia
abc123
Banned
No, not until the death of Louis I the Great.
After that, with Hungary and Croatia in insurection of magnates against of his daughter, maybe...
This "Greater Croatia", while certainly not strong enough to face the Ottomans head-on it could have survived Ottoman rule in the Balkans as an Ottoman protectorate (like Moldova or Wallachia), emerging after the end of Turkish rule as an independent medium-sized country with a majority of the population being Catholic and identifying as Croatian.
Ofcourse, this depends a lot on what the Habsurgs do.
abc123
Banned
True.
But, IMO, only real chance except 1382. is 1301.
That year Arpad dynasty died out, and then hereditary ban of Croatia and Lord of Bosnia Paul I. Šubić brought Angevine dynasty as a new rulers of Hungary-Croatia.
But, if he decided to proclaim Croatia-Bosnia as independent ( maybe without Slavonia ) and self as a King/Regent/something else he MIGHT even make it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavao_Šubić_Bribirski
Hungaria was in dynastic fights after end of Arpad dynasty, so anything is possible.
Most likely the Hapsburgs would do what they do best......MARRY into a Croatian-Bosnian dynasty
abc123
Banned
Not quite sure.
Croatia has too important position, if you conquer Croatia you have open doors for Italy and Rome and Western Europe, while if you conquer Bessasrabia or Transylvania you are in a middle of nowhere...
True.
But, IMO, only real chance except 1382. is 1301.
That year Arpad dynasty died out, and then hereditary ban of Croatia and Lord of Bosnia Paul I. Šubić brought Angevine dynasty as a new rulers of Hungary-Croatia.
But, if he decided to proclaim Croatia-Bosnia as independent ( maybe without Slavonia ) and self as a King/Regent/something else he MIGHT even make it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavao_Šubić_Bribirski
Hungaria was in dynastic fights after end of Arpad dynasty, so anything is possible.
A Croatian-Bosnian tributary state of the Ottoman Empire.....VERY doable
abc123
Banned
If Paul suceeded ( he couldn't because his mindset didn't allow him/or other croatian nobility to go for independence in that time, their max. was to choose a new king ) there wouldn't be Bosnia. He would incorporated she into Croatia.
If he could make some deal with Babonić/Baboneg magnates family in Slavonia, he might even get Slavonia...
Last edited:
He would then have to forge alliances to protect his new gains from both the Hungarians and the Turks....Venice, the Papal States..Naples.....maybe even Spain
abc123
Banned
Well, that the whole point.
Anybody wouldn't want to be ally of Croatia.
Venetia had designs on adriatic coast, Naples on whole Hungary-Croatia, Turks were out of the picture in that time, Spain is still disuited and too far, Pope under influence of Venice/Naples...
Maybe only Serbia...
ahhh....but down the road that could present a problem....assuming Serbia undergoes that 'manifest destiny' which the US experienced in the 1800s....a Croatia-Bosnia united kingdom would be easy pickings for Belgrade. They would have to appeal to the pope on the basis that a heretical nation (Serbia) was threatening their religious integrity by planning to annex into a Greek Orthodox state.
abc123
Banned
Well, it's important not to mix Sebia before Turkish conquest and Serbia AFTERTurks.
Serbia before Turks wasn't oriented towards west, because there allmost wasn't Serbs in west. They were oriented towards southeast into Bysantium and Bulgaria.
Also, Serbs would have interest to take lands in the north, until Sava and Danube rivers from Hungary.
Serbs would probably get Hum trough.
Pavao I married 1300 with a princess from serbian royal family, so some sort of alliance is extremly possible.
Last edited:
So the only ones they would have to fear are the Hungarians and Venetians. I'm sure an arrangement could be reached with the Republic of Venice for trade privileges and a few coastal towns for them in exchange for financial and military support
abc123
Banned
You don't see the point, that same cities were the most important part of Croatia, they have sent most of the money into a Treasury. Without them, Croatia would be poor and couldn't fight against Hungarians.
Paul himself defeated Venice and have take over city of Zadar from them.
True.
But, IMO, only real chance except 1382. is 1301.
That year Arpad dynasty died out, and then hereditary ban of Croatia and Lord of Bosnia Paul I. Šubić brought Angevine dynasty as a new rulers of Hungary-Croatia.
But, if he decided to proclaim Croatia-Bosnia as independent ( maybe without Slavonia ) and self as a King/Regent/something else he MIGHT even make it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavao_%C5%A0ubi%C4%87_Bribirski
Hungaria was in dynastic fights after end of Arpad dynasty, so anything is possible.
Well and there also is the chance that the earlier independent kingdom of Croatia survives.
However in all these medieval cases, except for the Dalmatian coast, expanding south and southeast is the most likely area for direct Croatian expansion; however there they probably will also meet resistance, but it's relatively speaking the weakest neighbouring state/area, since their other neighbouring realms were Hungary and the Holy Roman Empire. However a king of Croatia could end inheriting Hungarian and/or HRE fiefs, but these will be held in personal union.
Well and there also is the chance that the earlier independent kingdom of Croatia survives.
However in all these medieval cases, except for the Dalmatian coast, expanding south and southeast is the most likely area for direct Croatian expansion; however there they probably will also meet resistance, but it's relatively speaking the weakest neighbouring state/area, since their other neighbouring realms were Hungary and the Holy Roman Empire. However a king of Croatia could end inheriting Hungarian and/or HRE fiefs, but these will be held in personal union.
Indeed. If the House of Plantagenet could do it....why cant a noble Croatian House?