Greater British Empire

as i said, i actually dont know that much about medieval europe. as for "celtic art", that would be an aesthetic change and not so much an important change compared to their political, social, and military history. perhaps their renaissance could be in architecture so we have these grand, cathedral-like castles more magnificent than buckingham palace

art movements are important representatives of economics, politics, and intellectual history. the Italian Renaissance came into being because you had increasingly wealthy city states that were centers of trade and increasingly connected to the wider world. The Italians were influenced by Byzantines immensely, without that important connection to the classical era the Renaissance wouldn't be the same.

but also it comes down to the fact that if you want a britain with immense architecture and advanced art in the thirteenth century BritaIn has to be much richer than it was.

if the English platagnets win the hundreds years war, they now rule both France and England. So likely they will move the capital to Rouen in northern France which is exactly between Paris and london.

In the future England would become the lesser member of this united kingdom. the Aristocracy would be mainly French, and the major money maker would be French lands.
 
if the English platagnets win the hundreds years war, they now rule both France and England. So likely they will move the capital to Rouen in northern France which is exactly between Paris and london.

In the future England would become the lesser member of this united kingdom. the Aristocracy would be mainly French, and the major money maker would be French lands.
not quite sure what to make of a british capital in france, but this might work somehow. maybe britain could control a fair amount of france as well into the colonial era but loses some of this territory following the american revolution. i think id personally prefer if the government center and capital remained in england

i decided to whip up a VERY rough map of the rough british empire in this ATL c. 1754 (based on a wikipedia image) showing my current projections of british france. this also leaves france as a colonial power; in this ATL, theres still a french revolution and a napoleonic regime (and yes, i left india off on purpose; i still havent decided if it becomes a british colony here). perhaps the revolution could be further projected at the british as well as possibly a puppet french regime of louis and marie, leading to the rise of robespierre and later napoleon

please dont question some of the borders on the map itself; its the parts in britain and france that are important here

Rough Britannia.PNG
 
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Why would a victorious english give up Aquitaine to the French? That was the richest duchy the English controlled.

But victory in the hundred years war means that there is no effective French monarch other than the King of England. religious conflict should be mentioned in your tl as well. Considering how important that is.
 
The 100 years war was not about England taking over France.
It was about French lords fighting each other to expand their domains and determine who would be king of France; one of the key French lords happened to be also the king of England.
IOTL England won the 100 years war- the English kings lost their lands in France and became first and foremost English kings. Had the Plantagenet's won then England would have been under French domination, not vice-versa.

Also: Butterfly effect
 
It was about French lords fighting each other to expand their domains and determine who would be king of France; one of the key French lords happened to be also the king of England.

That last sentence is very important in understanding one of the most important aspects of the relationship between France and England in the Medieval era; William, as Duke of Normandy, was a vassal of the King of France. However, he then conquered England, and acquired the title King of England. This led to the scenario that any English king who also possessed lands in France was technically the vassal of the French King whilst in theory being a monarch in his own right. It worked about as well as it sounds.

Also, POD is very, very important in this scenario. Not only that, an understanding of the precise aspects of pre-Roman or pre-Anglo-Saxon England too, because the British Isles was not just a blank set of 'Celtic' culture. In most historical circles these days the term 'Celtic' is disliked, because it groups together a huge number of quite distinct cultures. If you want to use the term 'Celtic', then the 'Celtic' cultures in Britain divided into two main groups; the Goidelic cultures and the Brythonic cultures. The Goidelic group's current descendants are modern Scots, Manx and modern Irish, and Brythonic culture's are Wales, Cornwall and Brittany. The two cultural traditions are quite different from one another.
 
That last sentence is very important in understanding one of the most important aspects of the relationship between France and England in the Medieval era; William, as Duke of Normandy, was a vassal of the King of France. However, he then conquered England, and acquired the title King of England. This led to the scenario that any English king who also possessed lands in France was technically the vassal of the French King whilst in theory being a monarch in his own right. It worked about as well as it sounds.

This is true for the 12th century. not the 14th, English kings did not consider themselves French magnates after the fall of the Angevin Empire, Henry III and Edward I and II were English monarchs. Their main concerns were internal management issues in England itself (which Edward I tried to distract himself from with border warfare.) The status of Aquitaine, ambiguous as it was, caused relatively little friction for over a century.
 
okay, i did some pretty quick research into the hundred years war--more will be required--but how does it sound if the point of divergence comes at the end of the war with the house of valois' defenses faltering in some way (spies? traitors? who knows? this could go on to some of the ASB elements that i plan to include. it remains to be decided) and instead of a decisive victory by the french, the british win and france becomes a puppet state, occupying it. resentment towards the british is maintained until some later point in history (yet to be decided, possibly dated to the real french revolution)

how does that sound to everyone?
 
Oshron even though you have edited out some mistakes out of your first post, you still haven dozens more, you need to explain your timeline, look at these two examples:

How and why do the British and Italian renaissance happen at the same time, and how are they similar?

How does Britain win the 100 years war?

etc.
 
well i'll still need to do more research into the hundred years war, but the deciding point happens in the 25 years or so (this would be around when joan of arc comes up) and it would be during this time that the french start to lose pretty severely

the british and italian renaissances arent necessarily the same, but just happen to occur at the same time. this is still a flexible idea. maybe it could be that thee renaissance reaches britain the same time it did historically but just goes on longer than the italian one

maybe i should just start a new thread to lessen confusion here and try to clean up the timeline further. thoughts on that?
 
I really really hope the name you plan to use is not "Britannia", though several stuff you've said point to it.

Also, if you plan to make a TL with such an early PoD, within a couple of centuries the world would be completely unrecognizable from our own. In that case, if you are planning on making a story that spans a relatively short amount of time, it'd be better if you concentrated on that specific span rather than fabricate 1000+ years og human history.
 
my ATL goes on into the near future. the POD for britain here isnt much further in the past from the POD for the aztecs, which ive already established

alternatively, i could bring the more important point to a more recent time, the napoleonic wars


and yes, the name is a variation of "Britannia". the entire ATL was inspired by code geass. i dont want to argue it here, though, because i want to work on the backstory itself.
 
and yes, the name is a variation of "Britannia". the entire ATL was inspired by code geass. i dont want to argue it here, though, because i want to work on the backstory itself.

That's what I thought. Code Geass is a very entertaining show, but I'm afraid it's whole backstory makes no sense at all. Believe me, I've overanalyzed it.
 
me too. :rolleyes: one of the things im trying to do here is make the basic idea of code geass a bit more realistic (more plausible knightmares, a few more world powers, etc). im trying to cast britannia a bit more positively because ive got a fair amount of friends in the UK

yknow, i was actually kind of afraid youd refuse to help further if the inspiration got out :p

in any case, the code geass inspiration isnt really important right now. what do you think of a possible napoleonic POD? the case here would be that napoleon wins at waterloo and most or all of the german states are annexed by france, which then contends with a naval war against britain and a land war against russia (i actually asked about waterloo alternatives at a history board awhile ago and they suggested that napoleon would probably have still lost to russia even if he beat britain and prussia). this is actually similar to a code geass POD, but not as drastically different

speaking of the timeline, i think ill go back to the original post and try to rework it there in an attempt to lessen confusion
 
By waterloo, Napoleon was already doomed. I've read that a victory in Spain, and no Russia, could most probably lead to a victorious Napoleon.
 
me too. :rolleyes: one of the things im trying to do here is make the basic idea of code geass a bit more realistic (more plausible knightmares, a few more world powers, etc). im trying to cast britannia a bit more positively because ive got a fair amount of friends in the UK

yknow, i was actually kind of afraid youd refuse to help further if the inspiration got out :p

in any case, the code geass inspiration isnt really important right now. what do you think of a possible napoleonic POD? the case here would be that napoleon wins at waterloo and most or all of the german states are annexed by france, which then contends with a naval war against britain and a land war against russia (i actually asked about waterloo alternatives at a history board awhile ago and they suggested that napoleon would probably have still lost to russia even if he beat britain and prussia). this is actually similar to a code geass POD, but not as drastically different

speaking of the timeline, i think ill go back to the original post and try to rework it there in an attempt to lessen confusion

Code Geass is crappy alternate history, just you know and was a crappy show at least the first season.
 
Code Geass is crappy alternate history, just you know and was a crappy show at least the first season.
thing is, its not really about the ATL, its about the story itself. but thats beside the point

so if an all but historical waterloo is out of the question, what point earlier in napoleon's return do you all think would be more likely to build up to a more successful waterloo and subsequent years?
 
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