Greater British Empire

[oshron]

Great English Empire

as another part of my ATL, one of the more significant world powers is the british empire (it actually goes by a different name in the ATL, but thats irrelevent for this discussion). this will be a bit more complicated than the aztec history because the POD is much earlier. here's a rough historical outline from months ago:

EDIT: ive redone parts of the timeline

• 1305: scottish war of independence. british victory over the forces of william wallace
• 1337: hundred years wars. possible POD is that britain wins and france becomes a puppet state for a period of time (possibly until the OTL french revolution)
• 1348-1350: the black plague. possibility here is that the british are less affected by teh plague
• 1550s: british renaissance begins. cultural changes as in history occur, but other changes in terms of architecture also come about so that theres more magnificent-looking castles and cathedrals than in OTL england. a possible POD here is that the british renaissance goes on longer than in actual history and supersedes all other european renaissance movements, even if its not necessarilt by much
• 1570s: british support of mayaztec resistance (see "Early Modern Aztec Empire")
• 1583: newfoundland becomes the first british colony in america
• 1607: jamestown
• c1650: Oliver Cromwell; possibilities are that cromwell could be defeated and executed. thoughts?
• 1665: second dutch-british war (same as OTL)
• 1757: battle of plassey; possibility of POD here in that the british lose and dont colonize india, but this is subject to change
• 1770-1781: american revolutionary wars (virtually the same as OTL)
• 1788: new south wales
• 1801: merger of great britain and ireland to form a new, greater empire analogous to the UK
• 1812: anglo-american war.infantry fighting breaks out in canada so the brits have to send some troops over there to help, but lose anyway. not only are they forced to recognize american trading rights with france, but they also lose the greater part of canada (roughly west from the southwestern tip of ontario to james bay) AND they lose the napoleonic wars after napoleon returns from exile
• 1815: Battle of Waterloo; Wellington and von Blucher are killed, the german states are annexed by france (austria-hungary pretty much takes germany's place in history)
• 1816-1821: the "Channel Wars" between britain and france, where napoleon continually tries to invade the british isles, but never succeeds, until his death. his heir calls of the war because its too expensive. (sidenote: napoleon dies on the same day as in OTL and his death is officially attributed to cancer, but there are rumors that he was actually poisoned by british or prussian assassins)
• 1865: britain and america go back to their former "parent-and-child" relationship and become full allies by the turn of the century
• c1890: Second Boer War; the dutch win, so the brits give them back south africa

theres a few other things to keep in mind for this ATL: it remains an imperial monarchy and employs a political and aristocratic system about halfway between an absolute and constitutional monarchy, so while there IS a parliament and it has alot of influence, alot of its members are hereditary nobles and the emperor can overturn any decision made by parliament (similar to the american congress and the president, but parliament cant force a law if the emperor vetoes it). they also maintain colonialism through to the modern day, so the parts of canada that they continue holding, australia, new zealand, and select other places continue being dominions of the empire

i also already worked out the part about canada on another board, so i dont think ill need to work out much about that

EDIT: ive also attached a map of former british colonial possessions for quick reference

 

[Alexander Lee]

Dear oshron, have you ever heard of the butterfly effect?

 

[Max Sinister]

And besides: Why greater? Even excluding butterflies, it looks like your Brits lose more often than in OTL than the other way round.

 

[oshron]

i was just using that as the title its supposed to be similar in title to "Greater German Reich" in any case, thats not the name of the british empire in my ATL. its gonna be "the Empire of Brit_____". im keeping it secret because i dont want to turn anyone off the idea because of its basis

yes, i have heard of the butterfly effect, but, as was brought up in my Early Modern Aztec Empire thread, since its an ATL of my design, i can butterfly it anyway i want. will we debate that again before getting on to the TL itself?

btw, im not trying to sound rude or anything, i just want to work on the TL

 

[Alexander Lee]

yes, i have heard of the butterfly effect, but, as was brought up in my Early Modern Aztec Empire thread, since its an ATL of my design, i can butterfly it anyway i want. will we debate that again before getting on to the TL itself?

btw, im not trying to sound rude or anything, i just want to work on the TL

The thing is basically that if the British Isles were to remain Celtic it would not be anything like our OTL or this thread. You also skipped the thousand years in between 300 AD and 1300 AD, which would be the most important millenia this timeline could possibly have..

 

[oshron]

well remeber, that rough timeline is basically just the parts that i wrote up when i first came up with this idea some months ago (i only discovered this board a week or two ago). its really mostly just in the ancient period, when they dont become a roman province, that they would really get butterflied significantly; the more recent colonial period is where their history diverges further. and i also dont want to make it virtually identical to the aztec history that i came up with (or i suppose i could; i do firmly believe that history repeats itself). i suppose i could change it so that the celts try to fight off the romans for a few hundred years until uther or arthur comes up, at which point the remaining romans are fought off as well as teh saxons

 

[Epimethius]

i was just using that as the title its supposed to be similar in title to "Greater German Reich" in any case, thats not the name of the british empire in my ATL. its gonna be "the Empire of Brit_____". im keeping it secret because i dont want to turn anyone off the idea because of its basis

yes, i have heard of the butterfly effect, but, as was brought up in my Early Modern Aztec Empire thread, since its an ATL of my design, i can butterfly it anyway i want. will we debate that again before getting on to the TL itself?

btw, im not trying to sound rude or anything, i just want to work on the TL

Yeah it is your TL, and I also don't want to sound rude either, but like Alexander Lee said, you started out with a POD of a Celtic Britain, yet from a first glance at the map and your TL, it appears little different from OTL. Given the POD the butterfly effect is going to be massive, in other words a first glance look at your TL should reveal massive differences from OTL (which it doesn't). You also appear to be a gamer and so you should be familiar with the term "railroading". You've railroaded things rather then examine the potential consequences (however far out from regular thinking they may be) of the events you have put into your tl. Take a look at Roberts "The Britons Triumphant" to see a TL with a POD similar to yours but where the events and their consequences are mapped out. Just a few suggestions to make your TL better.

 

[Saepe Fidelis]

The thing is basically that if the British Isles were to remain Celtic it would not be anything like our OTL or this thread. You also skipped the thousand years in between 300 AD and 1300 AD, which would be the most important millenia this timeline could possibly have..

Hmm, indeed. I'd say that if Britain resisted Roman rule it would make them all the more likely to try and retake it. Nero might fall earlier but his successor would ultimately try and retake Britain in order to prove himself a superior emperor and to restore Rome's dignity. That's the thing with the Romans-they just kep coming back.

 

[oshron]

actually im not familiar with the term "railroading". care to explain?

and i see. maybe then i should set the POD to when the romans pull out of britain historically to lessen the flock of killer butterflies. what do you all think?

 

[Saepe Fidelis]

actually im not familiar with the term "railroading". care to explain?

and i see. maybe then i should set the POD to when the romans pull out of britain historically to lessen the flock of killer butterflies. what do you all think?

Well what would the POD be? The plausibility of your TL depends entirely upon it.

 

[oshron]

well, gimme a moment to go and do some quick research.....wikipedia indicates that the roman empire held britain until 410. i guess i could change it so that they still become anglo-saxons and have only an aesthetic earlier POD (which would be the origin of the country's modern name). that being said, the POD could probably be the renaissance when it becomes more cultured and rises to rome-like prowess even though it doesnt hold much territory outside the british empire. ill go back and edit out the prior parts of the history

EDIT: oh! also, id like to just remind everyone that the map i attached isnt really a map of what the final empire will be, but just a quick reference map of former british possessions

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

You need a lot of work, boy but it's an okay premise.

 

[MNP]

The last time Britain resisted Roman rule we got the @#%&!*$ Holy Empire of Brittania. I'll be honest and say that concepts like yours probably work better than more 'realistic' AH in the actual realm of book sales, but it's not something I'm too interested in for the same reason.

 

[oshron]

to be perfectly honest, im not doing this for book sales (there IS a book im working on thats technical alt-hist, but its not this project), but for an RPG that im making. i already tried it once with a comparatively loose history, but it wasnt as successful as i had hoped. im hoping to rework all the history of it before trying again and then hopefully get some participation from here

 

[Tobit]

I think you should explain more about your "Renaissance Britain" firstly because the term Britain implies the entire British isles. When in the thirteenth century England, wales, Scotland, and even Cornwall were all culturally distinct.

Also the term Renaissance is extremely broad and it involves much more than simply aesthetics. Even aesthetically a British Renaissance would be nothing like the Italian Renaissance which quite literally was a rebirth of Roman and Greek culture. the British wouldn't have roman sculptures to copy because I don't think there were any in britain at that time.

Also the fact that you put down Britain wins the hundred years war seems like you are supposing that the plantagnet dynasty survives. 1337 though isn't the date for that to occur but rather in 1420. And that would involve a big enough difference that Elizabeth I or Cromwell would not possibly matter.

 

[oshron]

I think you should explain more about your "Renaissance Britain" firstly because the term Britain implies the entire British isles. When in the thirteenth century England, wales, Scotland, and even Cornwall were all culturally distinct.

that would be great britain then, as there is a scottish war of independence and great britain and ireland (along with the other british isles that are previously independent, if any) merge later on

Also the term Renaissance is extremely broad and it involves much more than simply aesthetics. Even aesthetically a British Renaissance would be nothing like the Italian Renaissance which quite literally was a rebirth of Roman and Greek culture. the British wouldn't have roman sculptures to copy because I don't think there were any in britain at that time.

a british renaissance could perhaps be a revival of old celtic art that later merges with that of the italian renaissance (as in some artists see the works of michelangelo and the like and get inspired there), so heavily romanticized arthurian works could appear

Also the fact that you put down Britain wins the hundred years war seems like you are supposing that the plantagnet dynasty survives. 1337 though isn't the date for that to occur but rather in 1420. And that would involve a big enough difference that Elizabeth I or Cromwell would not possibly matter.

well i may have been wrong there. maybe the dynasty could fall but they win anyway. i honestly dont know that much about medieval england so any help here would be much appreciated

 

[Tobit]

that would be great britain then, as there is a scottish war of independence and great britain and ireland (along with the other british isles that are previously independent, if any).

a british renaissance could perhaps be a revival of old celtic art that later merges with that of the italian renaissance (as in some artists see the works of michelangelo and the like and get inspired there), so heavily romanticized arthurian works could appear

well i may have been wrong there. maybe the dynasty could fall but they win anyway. i honestly dont know that much about medieval england so any help here would be much appreciated

What do you mean old Celtic art? Why would the Scottish adopt Irish style, or the English who were very French influenced.

Also with wars of succession like the hundred years war, you can't possibly have the dynasty die out and their side still win. Because in medieval Europe anytime a dynasty dies out you have immediate chaos since there are always multiple claimants to the throne. Hence the war of the roses.

 

[oshron]

as i said, i actually dont know that much about medieval europe. as for "celtic art", that would be an aesthetic change and not so much an important change compared to their political, social, and military history. perhaps their renaissance could be in architecture so we have these grand, cathedral-like castles more magnificent than buckingham palace

 

[Municipal Engines]

With all this Celtic stuff, I'm coming to the conclusion that you meant "Greater Celtic Empire" rather than "Greater British Empire".

 

[oshron]

again, "Greater Broitish Empire" isnt gonna be the final name. im just calling it that so that its inspiration doesnt potentially turn people off the idea (some of you may have already figured it out, though)