Great War in 1926 with a naval treaty in 1915 and no WWI .

Taken my Thread here as the starting line https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=227334 .

So there has not been a Great war between 1910's-1920 in this world .
But it starts in 1926 over China and trading rights there with the Russian trying there hand at a 2nd Russo - Japaneses War .

So we had a Naval Treaty in 1915 limiting sizes of Fleets for the world .

What would the sides for the war be if Russia had started another Russo - Japaneses War would France come to her aid ? What side Would the UK join ?
what would the US and Germany do if war broke out in the Pacific .
 
1926 GERMAN Battle fleet has these Battle ships
König
Großer Kurfürst
Markgraf
Kronprinz Wilhlem
Bayern
Baden
Sachsen
Württember
and these Battle cruisers
Derfflinger
Lützow
Hindenburg
Mackensen
Prinz Eitel Friedrich
Graf Spee
Fürst Bismarck
Yorck
Ersatz Gneisenau
Ersatz Scharnhorst
so what would people say that the british fleet would look like in this 1926
 
If Russia is starting a second Russo-Japanese War does that imply that the Anglo-Japanese Alliance was allowed to lapse as per OTL?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Ward

You would have to make clear why in TTL:
a) You get a naval agreement in 1915, along with of course no WW1.

b) What path develops to this world so that this war starts in 1926.

For instance what state is China in at this time? How has Russia developed? Given some of the fears about its development it could be the largest economic and military power by this point - largest not necessarily meaning best.;) In that case you probably have an Anglo-German friendship at least. From those two factors Germany is probably running down its navy somewhat. France is probably [but not certainly] allied to Russia. However what is the status of Austria, Italy and the Ottomans? How has India developed? What has happened in Ireland?

If Russia hasn't become a giant that just about everybody feels threatened by, then Anglo-German relations could still be poor. In this case Britain now has two allies going to war and what it does depends on circumstances. Ditto with every other nations reaction to the war.

If Russia and Japan fight it out without others intervening or serious threats that means say Russia has to keep massive forces watching Germany and Austria I would say Russia has a limited victory. It now has the railway in operation so can send troops and supplies east much more easily. Also it will have a much stronger economy, especially as the Japanese are still reeling from the 23 quake. Probably that the Japanese will have the more powerful fleet, at least in theatre and be able to defeat any Russian naval reinforcements so can limit any Russian victory. Also Korea could be a tough nut for the Russians with the terrain and a narrow peninsula, provided the Japanese don't make major mistakes. However would be difficult to see Japan sustaining a long confrontation in Manchuria I suspect.

Steve
 
As per Steve's reply, the situation in China could have either a strongly entrenched Japanese influence which Russia is challenging, or a chaotic internal situation that Japan is taking advantage of and which sees Russia intervene to prevent them succeeding?

Given Japan's focus on China post-1905 I don't see the third choice, Russia having the strong position (as it did pre-1904) and being challenged by Japan

Has the Empire been restored, or has militarism run rampant, or regionalism sustained democracy whilst weakening the centre at Peking?

Is China itself a player in the coming war - after all if one of the combatants can motivate the Chinese they have a massive source of auxiliary manpower?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

sharlin

Banned
Well assuming we get the same building as OTL

Iron Duke - in reserve
Marlborough - in reserve
Emperor of India - in reserve
Benbow - in reserve

Royal Soverign
Revenge
Royal Oak
Resolution
Ramillies
Renown (see notes below)
Repulse (see notes below)
Resistance (see notes below)


Queen Elizabeth
Warspite
Barham
Malaya
Valiant

N3 Class
N3 Class
N3 Class
N3 Class

Battlecruisers

Hood
Anson
Howe
Rodney

Lion - In reserve
Princess Royal - In reserve
Queen Mary - In reserve

Tiger

Renown (possibly built see notes below)
Repulse (possibly built see notes below)

G3 class
G3 Class
G3 Class
G3 Class

We can assume that sticking to OTL style construction cruisers would still go down the divergent Heavy/Light classification, the first 'heavy' cruisers were the RNs Hawkins class so you could expect to see successors of them as well as successors to the Emerald class.

Notes:

Just had a thought the Renown and Repulse were WW1 built, originally there would have been three more Royal Soverigns, the Renown, Repulse and Resistance.
 
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I can see Germany having very good relations with China with them helping to train the Chinese army and giving them some of the older war ships they were to scrap in the London treaty .
I can see the Germans giving China the Nassau class Battleship and maybe the Helgoland class Battleships . I can see Germany trying to Get China as an Allie as a counter to the British and the Russians .

A-H is still the sick giant of Europe that has not fallen apart as of yet , with the Norther part Growing more industrial and the Hungarian and other parts of the Empire losing economy ground to the industrial north .

The Ottoman Empire is still hanging on and trying to modernize and coming into there own with the Oil fields that they own .
 
I can see Germany having very good relations with China with them helping to train the Chinese army and giving them some of the older war ships they were to scrap in the London treaty .
I can see the Germans giving China the Nassau class Battleship and maybe the Helgoland class Battleships . I can see Germany trying to Get China as an Allie as a counter to the British and the Russians .

To be honest, I think Germany would be more likely to dispose of older battleships.
 

sharlin

Banned
China was a de-fanged mangey tiger 'thanks' to the actions of the West and the US as well as Japan. To make China into a worthwhile ally would probably be more expensive than any chance of return in this time period.
 
Well assuming we get the same building as OTL


N3 Class
N3 Class
N3 Class
N3 Class

G3 class
G3 Class
G3 Class
G3 Class

Without the Great War you wouldn't have any of these as we know them. They were all Post-Jutland battleships. The war does make it a little hard to forecast successors to the Revenge class.
 
Italy will left the CP at the next renewal of the treaty, the alliance was already just a piece of paper but with Franz Ferdinand (a notorious anti-italian) at the helm it's impossible that Italy stay.
 

sharlin

Banned
With regards to the G and N class you could argue its logical, the USN was showing the world how its done with tripple turrets and most importantly all or nothing protection.

I mentioned the G and N's because the original post had the Germans building their OTL planned ships without war experience (many BCs) and you can bet your bottom dollar the RN would have replied, perhaps with something not quite as radical in design as the G and N but in similar scale, yes.
 
With regards to the G and N class you could argue its logical, the USN was showing the world how its done with tripple turrets and most importantly all or nothing protection.

I mentioned the G and N's because the original post had the Germans building their OTL planned ships without war experience (many BCs) and you can bet your bottom dollar the RN would have replied, perhaps with something not quite as radical in design as the G and N but in similar scale, yes.

Actually all of the German War ships were ether laid down or ordered in 1915 :D
http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/battlecruiser/index.html
 
Actually all of the German War ships were ether laid down or ordered in 1915 :D
http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/battlecruiser/index.html

Designs for German battleships and battlecruisers continued to be made throughout the war and a book detailing them has been published, in German. However, there is very little about the Royal Navy's potential successors to Revenges.

I strongly doubt that there would be a nearly 15,000 ton one time jump in tonnage as seen from the Queen Elizabeths and Revenges to OTL N3. Most likely there would be the emergence of the 'hybrid' battleship/battlecruiser, as seen in the HMS Hood. The adoption of the 16in gun is likely, but not the triple turret without some fight. I'm not factoring in the battlecruisers since they traditionally were larger than their battleship counterparts.

The Royal Navy will concentrate on numbers of ships and they will gradually grow in size, especially since any increases would be tied to also expanding the infrastructure to support them.
 
How has Russia developed? Given some of the fears about its development it could be the largest economic and military power by this point - largest not necessarily meaning best.;) In that case you probably have an Anglo-German friendship at least. From those two factors Germany is probably running down its navy somewhat. France is probably [but not certainly] allied to Russia. However what is the status of Austria, Italy and the Ottomans? How has India developed? What has happened in Ireland?

If Russia hasn't become a giant that just about everybody feels threatened by, then Anglo-German relations could still be poor. In this case Britain now has two allies going to war and what it does depends on circumstances. Ditto with every other nations reaction to the war.

I don't know if there'll be anglo-German friendship, but there are many developments that should lead to better relations between these two than in 1914.

Germany will likely have undergone internal liberalization with the Kaiser loosing power. Italy will likely leave the CP. AH will either collapsed or have experienced internal turmoil due to reforms. As a consequence, there could be a more liberal/less chauvinistic German government that lost many of its allies - quite a change. The naval treaty IMHO will rather weaken Germany in relation to Britain, which is also good for their relation. All in all, there should be a humbled Germany around.

On the other side, Russia will have developped quite dynamically and thus is a lot stronger than IOTL. Without a war in Europe, the Russians will likely have tried something with the straits, Persia, Inner Asia or China - I doubt that that second Russo-Japanese war is the first foreign move of Russia since 1914. All those moves would have alienated Britain.

To conclude, if there is a second Russo-Japanese war, escalation into a world war means that Germany fights the Russians as well and in turn France fights Germany. Britain at least initially will be neutral, and I strongly doubt them helping the Russians.
 
To conclude, if there is a second Russo-Japanese war, escalation into a world war means that Germany fights the Russians as well and in turn France fights Germany. Britain at least initially will be neutral, and I strongly doubt them helping the Russians.

Don't forget the Anglo Japanese alliance. With Germany still a threat, there's a good chance Britain won't let it lapse.
 
Don't forget the Anglo Japanese alliance. With Germany still a threat, there's a good chance Britain won't let it lapse.

The Anglo-Japanese Treaty has pretty much run its course with the Russians being defeated in the Russo-Japanese War. Japanese drives into the Chinese market and into China itself will be problematic.
 
Don't forget the Anglo Japanese alliance. With Germany still a threat, there's a good chance Britain won't let it lapse.

:confused: I don't get this.

If there's the Anglo-Japanese alliance still around, it should decrease the chance of Britain supporting the Russians, leading to British neutrality or Britain fighting the Russians alongside the Germans.

On the other side, if the British are mainly interested in Germany, the British should more likely support the side fighting the Germans - which in case of an escalating Russo-Japanese war will likely be the Russians. So they fail their alliance?
 
Designs for German battleships and battlecruisers continued to be made throughout the war and a book detailing them has been published, in German. However, there is very little about the Royal Navy's potential successors to Revenges.

Could you give me the name of the book if you would please I read some German .
 
The Anglo-Japanese Treaty has pretty much run its course with the Russians being defeated in the Russo-Japanese War. Japanese drives into the Chinese market and into China itself will be problematic.

I just figured with Germany still a credible threat, and a growing power in Russia, Britain might be more inclined to keep the treaty intact.
 
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