Great Britain missed aerospace opportunities

1- The agreement with the USA over transport aircrafts is denounced in 1944. Avro York is produced in large numbers.
Denounced is a rather strong term, no? Especially considering how generous the US was during and after the war. I'd also have to question if there was an official agreement as such or simply that due to early war conditions Britain found itself mostly concentrating on fighters and bombers and the US had both several aircraft such as the Douglas C-47 Skytrain and C-54 Skymaster And the free production capacity to build them in bulk. As for the Avro York it was a rubbish plane in comparison whose only main advantage was it being a conversion of a plane that was already in service, if the UK wants their own transport then better looking at restarting the Short S.32 programme which was rather DC-4 like albeit with tailwheel landing gear unfortunately. Ideally with the Douglas aircraft for comparison they would build it with tricycle landing gear, or at least go with tail landing gear to begin with to get the early marks out the door and switch over as soon as possible.


2- The Malta-class carriers are build from 1946, modernised in 1957-59 to serve up to the 80’s. Most others carriers are withdrawn, scrapped, or rebuild as helicopter carrier / ASW ships.
Again a somewhat dodgy design that had been spoiled due to political interference, I generally question the need for features like the Alaskan taxiway, there's a reason why the designers felt more than a little relieved when it was finally cancelled. There's also the problem that in the immediate post-war period the UK is effectively broke, the government has much better things it needs to be spending its resources on. A superior design in a more conducive timeframe is the 1952 Carrier with them being built from say 1954 or 1955 onwards.


3 - Tigers and Vanguard cruisers and battleship are scrapped, not built or rebuild.
Might as well keep the Tiger-class cruisers since they've been launched right at the end of the war, as in our timeline put them in the reserves until the 1950s and use the still active cruisers from the war for the intervening period though. If they are eventually commissioned then under no circumstances do the helicopter conversions. Same with HMS Vanguard, she was commissioned in early 1946 so you either have to put her in the ready reserve, which is not a massive saving, or scrap a brand new battleship which I just can't see being politically viable.


4- Miles M52 is not cancelled and reach Mach 1 in 1949.
Makes sense, IIRC they spent almost twice as much as the estimated cost of completing it on the experimental radio controlled models.


5- Great Britain numerous, small, scattered and inefficient aircraft companies are slowly integrated into a single, large group* (kind of British Aerospatiale).
The main problem I can see with that is essentially creating BAE, aka. Big And Expensive, several decades early and giving it a monopoly on domestic aircraft. The threat being that just as today governments would find themselves buying equipment with just as much an eye on domestic job protection and balance of trade figures as which is the best. Encouraging them to form two companies like Hawker Siddeley and British Aircraft Corporation which can both design for the full spectrum of Air Ministry specifications, use the advantages of consolidation, yet still provide competition to keep things honest.


6- Hawker P.1052 is build as an interim, swept wing fighter for both RN and RAF perform well in Korea…
No argument here, if you can batter Sydney Camm's ego into submission and get him to accept the data regarding swept wings you could potentially see it receiving a swept tail as well fairly quickly like the P.1081 'Australian' fighter. From there move to straight-through jet pipe as engine efficiency increases and reheat are possible future developments for a supersonic Hunter.


9- The Victor is the only V-bomber.
Easy enough to say with hindsight, it's also going to leave you with the problem of having to use B-29 bombers on loan from the US Air Force until it enters service as IIRC it didn't fly until after the UK's first air dropped nuclear test. Best solution to my mind is to build a few squadrons of Valiants to cover the gap and for operational experience then retire them when you introduce the Vulcan and an alternate Victor that's effectively a scaled down B-52 type aircraft.


11- After 1958 : The Buccaneer is RAF low level bomber (no TSR-2, AFVG, F-111K and Tornado) replacing the Canberra.
That's likely to be controversial, at the very least I hope that would include the supersonic P.150 variant for the RAF where features like folding wings aren't required.


13- Hawker P.1121 become RAF main all weather fighter, and fighter bomber - eventually a navalized variant is build for the RN modernized Maltas. It is modernized again and again, like the Phantom. No Lightning, no F-4K.
Would be interesting to see that happen. Not sure about how viable the navalised version is though, it would have to be redesigned and strengthened to such a degree that without that having been included from the start it could end up being practically a new aircraft. Then there's the single engine aspect. You may still need to buy the F-4, whether with Spey engines or not, for the Royal Navy.


13- After Valiant cancellation (the plane was unuseful due to the Victor) the Vickers VC-7 is funded by the RAF as transport (and later tanker). A civiliant variant is a success, kicking the ass of Boeing 707.
Doubt it would 'kick the ass' of the Boeing 707 but it would potentially give it some decent competition, provided of course that the RAF or BOAC didn't fuck things up by making too many specialised demands for their own perceived needs as to make it unattractive to other potential customers - as happened in our timeline.


19 - No CVA-01 fiasco. The RN build a 50 000 tons carrier derived from the French Pa-58 Verdun, itself a much heavier derivative of the Clemenceau-class.
Looking at the average operational lifespans of our timeline's Royal Navy aircraft carriers if you run the WWII carriers for the rest of the 1940s and early- to mid-1950s then build three or four 1952 Carrier designs being commissioned in the late-1950s to early-1960s that would potentially see you through to the start of the 1980s. By that time I could see one of them having been parked in the reserves as the defence budgets get tight in the 1970s and plans announced in the defence reviews to decommission them in the 1980s but something like the Falklands Campaign could intervene if it still happened.


Avon, Conway, Medway/Spey are the way to go (they receive priority over the others, so only the most interesting such as the Pegasus are developped.) Only Rolls-Royce and Hawker Siddeley remain as engine makers.
Olympus? Sapphire? In the very long run that's a good thing, but in the 1950s you're crippling the RAF.
Didn't the Rolls-Royce Avon have some trouble with its compressor I think it was in the early days before it matured into the excellent engine it became? I seem to recall that it was fixed by getting Armstrong Siddeley to share the design of the compressor from the Sapphire to fix things. With no Sapphire you might unintentionally increase the time it takes the Avon to fully hit its stride.


Feel free to "correct" others silly decisions- provided we stay in the aerospace domain at large (and Great Britain - sorry for the Avro Arrow fans!)
The other major missed opportunity that I can think of has to be the Fairey Delta 2. Excellent performance and very similar in design to the French Mirage fighter, the Mirage was not copied from it before anyone makes that old accusation again, and as shown might have developed into a great aircraft. Considering its speed and range it could have been enough to replace the English Electric Lightning in the point defence role fairly quickly whilst still also being able to carry out other roles. Best scenario to my mind is that in a show of Franco-British unity the Delta and Mirage projects are combined under a special joint company to handle it whilst the parent companies stay separate, let the French have the production line in France but give the customers the choice of British or French engines and avionics. The profits from it might give Fairey a chance to develop some of their more interesting guided weapons proposals further.
 
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Black Arrow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow

"The United Kingdom is the only country to have successfully developed and then abandoned a satellite launch capability. All other countries that have developed such a capability have retained it either through their own space programme or, in the case of France, through its involvement in the Ariane programme."

Its a level of daft you really have to be British in order to achieve.
 
Again a somewhat dodgy design that had been spoiled due to political interference, I generally question the need for features like the Alaskan taxiway, there's a reason why the designers felt more than a little relieved when it was finally cancelled. There's also the problem that in the immediate post-war period the UK is effectively broke, the government has much better things it needs to be spending its resources on. A superior design in a more conducive timeframe is the 1952 Carrier with them being built from say 1954 or 1955 onwards.

I think you're thinking about the CVA-01 rather than the Malta Class - the chief designer on that said the day they were cancelled was the best of his life because he'd had to make so many compromises.
 
Simon made a good point about bashing out a small batch of "Mark Is" in short order, then fixing problems during "Mark II" production.

The start of that process would involve fully-funding Frank Whittle's experiments during the 1930s. A proper staff of machinists and test-cell technicians would have allowed Whittle to work reasonable hours and avoid burning-out on benzadrene.
By the end of WW2, the UK would have a few (reliable) jet fighters and several turboprops approaching production. Those new turboprops could be bolted into slightly upgraded (piston-pounding) airliners.
Learn the major lessons flying the "Mark I" turboprop
airliners along short and medium routes, then improve "Mark II" airliners.

As for Lancastrians ..... call them Avro's "Mark I" military transports. Call Yorks "Mark II" military transports. Install Hercules radial engines on York "Mark III", then nose wheels and turboprops on "Mark IV" and tail ramps on "Mark V". This keeps the UK leading development of military transports.

The RAF sells last year's transports to the Sultan of Whatchamucallitstan. If the Sultan remains friendly, he gets to hire a few ex-RAF pilots and maintainers, etc. Meanwhile, the sultan's army buys Alvis armoured cars, Land Rovers and Bedford trucks. GQ sells thousands of parachutes to th Sultan's Parachute Regiment. SAS train his recce troops. SBS train his combat divers etc.
OTOH if the Sultan gets uppity, his supply of spare parts dries up.

By the 1950s, Bristol Britannia (and turboprop engines) are so fuel-efficient that RAF, RCAF and friendly sultans buy turboprop Argus maritime patrol planes.
 
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Alas, in this timeline, the Vicker VC-7--while it enjoys early success--is still overtaken by the Boeing 707 and Douglas DC-8 because by using podded engines, there is more growth potential because more powerful engines can be installed, unlike the VC-7's wing root-mounted engines. Indeed, both the 707 and DC-8 enjoy service extensions when the CFM56 engine becomes available in 1976 to retrofit to 707's and DC-8's.

Vickers had already done the basic design work for a VC7 with four podded Conways, the Scheme "G" (source: Vickers Valiant: The First of the V-Bombers by Eric B. Morgan, Aerofax, 2002)
 
I think you're thinking about the CVA-01 rather than the Malta Class - the chief designer on that said the day they were cancelled was the best of his life because he'd had to make so many compromises.
Bugger, you are indeed correct. Got my overly ambitious aircraft carriers mixed up. That being said the Malta-class were still questionable and certainly in the wrong timeframe - when you're having to literally rebuild the cities and country as a whole aircraft carriers are just a luxury you can't afford, especially when you still have a number of fairly recently commissioned ones.


It's a level of daft you really have to be British in order to achieve.
Not really. To be economically viable they had to build a minimum number of launchers a year, the UK however wasn't building enough satellites and experiments to fill all of these proposed launchers, and it was cheaper for countries to get the US to launch their payloads in comparison to the prices they would have charged. The UK didn't have the resources, as the Chief Secretary to the Treasury put it in 1963 "I suggest we cannot begin to build a vertical empire if our colleagues insist on our continuing to provide for the defence of a horizontal one." If for some reason you decide that the UK has a burning need to have a satellite launch capability then you'll have to choose what they're not going to spend that money on instead.

Now if you want to talk about daft though then walking away from the European Launcher Development Organisation (ELDO) after their first stage of the Europa rocket worked every time but the French and German second and third stages respectively kept malfunctioning or blowing probably qualifies. That was bloody stupid.
 
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WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
Develop the BAE EAP into the Typhoon alone, rather than in consortium with Spain/Germany/Italy. The aircraft will probably still sell to those nations (and be built under licence by those nations too, if they wish) but the UK keeps sole control over Typhoon development and export, losing the dead weight of Germany on both.

Can't develop Typhoon on it's own.

The original design was based on a German MBB-VFW proposal except it was a twin tail similar to a F-18.
 
What about the Hawker Siddeley HS.1202-9?
sMnjyi9.png

An altogether larger aircraft, this comprised a long series of designs over three years, mostly outside AST.403 requirements.

Power came from two reheated RB.199s or single RB.431 (essentially a straight - through Pegasus).

The first HS.1202 was drawn in November 1975 and featured a canard with square side intakes (there was also a tailed version with intakes above the fuselage). Two 27mm cannon and the forward undercarriage were housed in a lower fuselage bulge beneath the canards. Four bombs were placed in a low drag recess behind it.

A year later, studies had advanced to layouts more akin to the McDonnell Douglas F-18 which introduced leading edge root extensions.

In 1977 the aircraft became a British "F-16" and with a single fin, it looked remarkably like the General Dynamics machine. Four Sidewinders were carried, two 27mm in the LERX and a variety of ground attack weapons on four more under wing hard points.

Also from here:

In the mid 1970s, the British company Hawker Siddeley developed a concept for a medium-weight fighter for the Royal Air Force strongly influenced by the US’ F-16. This series of ‘P.1200’ concepts came from the company’s Kingston division. Though considerably larger than the F-16, most of the P.1200 designs featured a similar air intake, canopy, leading edge root extensions and general wing configuration.

Strangely the P.1202 design was offered with either two RB.199s or a single RB.431. The RB.199 was then in development for the Tornado, but as experience would show with the ADV, it was not a suitable fighter engine; it was tailor-made for the low-level regime and was a poor performer at the medium and high altitudes that an air superiority fighter needs to operate in. The RB.431 study was essentially a Pegasus with reheat and no vectored thrust nozzles, though powerful it again seems an odd choice for a supersonic fighter.

The initial design, from November 1975, featured a canard layout with square shoulder-mounted intakes, similar to the later Saab Gripen. Further designs utilized a conventional tail and dorsal intakes. Internal armament for the early P.1200 designs was two 27-mm Mauser cannon. Air-to-air armament was expected to be AIM-9 Sidewinders and SkyFlash medium-range missiles. In the secondary air-to-ground role it could have carried four bombs in a low-drag recess.

By 1977 the aircraft had become even more strongly influenced by the F-16. Both single and twin vertical fin configurations were tested. The twin-tailed P.1202 pictured above, would have had superior high alpha performance to the F-16, and given a suitable engine, would have made a formidable dogfighter.
 
Bugger, you are indeed correct. Got my overly ambitious aircraft carriers mixed up. That being said the Malta-class were still questionable and certainly in the wrong timeframe - when you're having to literally rebuild the cities and country as a whole aircraft carriers are just a luxury you can't afford, especially when you still have a number of fairly recently commissioned ones.

From what I've read the Maltas were the last of the 'pre-war' designs before the lessons of WW2 and the new engineering techniques available were translated into designs. I think they'd have been fine as they were if they'd have been built and used during the war but they'd have been as much a pain in the arse to upgrade in the 50s/60s as Victorious was.

I'm not a great expert on ship design but from what I've read the 1952 design seems to have been a much better bet for a fleet carrier, if the UK could have afforded to build new ones post war.
 
Can't develop Typhoon on it's own.

The original design was based on a German MBB-VFW proposal except it was a twin tail similar to a F-18.

Out of curiosity, is that for financial or technical reasons (or both)?

Could the EAP not have ended up as a 'Typhoon' with enough government interest?
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
Out of curiosity, is that for financial or technical reasons (or both)?

Could the EAP not have ended up as a 'Typhoon' with enough government interest?

For what I've gathered, the German proposal was chosen for 2 reasons.

Firstly, for finance. The UK govt wouldn't allow BAe finance unless their was a multi- European tie-up.

Secondly, the BAe proposals, the P106 & P110 where designs similar in configuration to the McD F-18, except BAe's had square inlet's (F-18 had rounded) and the twin tail was completely vertical (F-18 was canted). Thus the UK govt put the block on development as they wouldn't just get BAe to design and build basically a F-18 clone.

Not only that but the MBB/Dornier TKF 90 proposal (sorry I originally said MBB-VFW) was chosen to get German participation in the project.

If you google "Images for BAe P106" or "Images of MBB/Dornier TKF 90", you'll find plenty of links to get your teeth into regarding the designs and specs.

Regards filers.
 

Archibald

Banned
Hey, glad see my old thread back from the dead (hopefully Calbear wont zombified it)

Would be interesting to see that happen. Not sure about how viable the navalised version is though, it would have to be redesigned and strengthened to such a degree that without that having been included from the start it could end up being practically a new aircraft. Then there's the single engine aspect. You may still need to buy the F-4, whether with Spey engines or not, for the Royal Navy.

P.1121-Naval-Small_zpsrzipgify.jpg
http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy1/cacaprout1/P.1121-Naval-Small_zpsrzipgify.jpg
 
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I'm going through a minor love affair with the Gannet at the moment. So I'd have the RN go with the AS6 from 1959 rather than the Westlland Wessex as the shipboard ASW platform, a move which incidentally would help the RN's carrier force because carriers would be needed to undertake the RN's ASW task until at least 1970. Secondly I'd have the AEW3 upgraded into the AEW7, but not the ridiculous rotodome 'proposal' that gets vastly more attention on the web that it deserves, but rather the more modest and likely more practical and affordable upgrade of the AEW3 with a new radar and electronics.

im264-Fairey_Gannet_AEW.7.png
 

Archibald

Banned
I wonder about a little-known aircraft that could: the E-1B Tracer, essentially and AEW Tracker. A lot of Tracker have been given turboprops instead of piston engines, and the E-1B could have been been converted instead of going to the boneyard.

Here's a picture of an Argentina Tracker, with turbobprops, landing on Sao Paulo - the ex French Foch carrier.

Argentine_S-2T_landing_on_carrier_Sao_Paulo_2006.jpg
 
Assuming the Russian SAM development path is the same, at some point your V bombers have to switch from high altitude cruising in gleaming flash white to low altitude duck and dive and camo paint top an bottom. Trouble is, stylish as it is, the Victor's airframe can't take the stress. But the Vulcan's can. Which is why the Victors became tankers and the Vulcans flew Black Buck.
 
Can't develop Typhoon on it's own.

The original design was based on a German MBB-VFW proposal except it was a twin tail similar to a F-18.

Where do you get this rot from? P. 110 begat ACA (Agile Combat Aircraft), begat EAP, begat Typhoon. All these designs are primarily BAe in origin & lineage. Looking back to MBB proposals of the late 70s is a red herring. I know it's not as easy as plucking (erroneous) 'facts' off the internet, but the Warton Heritage Centre may be contacted / visited (with permission) for the full story. There's a world of difference between latter day 'napkinwaffe' & something you've actually mocked, tested and then cut metal (rolled composite!) for.

The suggestions of F - 18 'clones' is erroneous too. It should come as no surprise that designing different aircraft for the same ends will often produce similar aerodynamic shapes. The fact that the end product looks nothing like an F - 18 is merely a product of changing spec, evolved goals and better understanding.

In summary, there is no reason whatsoever why ACA / EAP could not have formed the basis of a UK only Typhoon analogue, save for the lack of political will.
 
Jesus, no wonder this thread seemed so familiar! Just noticed the dates of the original post and my reply on the previous page. Whoops. Apologies for repeating myself a second time around folks.


Okay so someone drew a picture of an unbuilt jet taking off from a carrier, that's nice. It doesnt really go any way towards whether or not it would be technically feasible to operate them as carrier aircraft in real life or whether they'd require large modifications.
 
Sorry folks, but I see the Turbo-Tracker as the "Mark II" of a series of twin-engined, carrier-based airplanes.
Then I see Gannet as the "Mark III" with center-line thrust.
That roto-dome sketch of a Gannet is cute, but I still think that you could install a radar antenna that diameter in the bomb-bay/torpedo-bay. Might have to leave the bombs at home.
Second option is to sling a (self-defence) Sidewinder off a wing-tip.
The goal would be a whole family of twin-engined: torpedo-bomber, ASW, COD, AEW, fisheries patrol, tanker, etc. sharing a similar airframe and 90 percent of the same consumable parts.

From a pilot's perspective, I prefer the Gannet's center-line thrust. Just hope the Gannet "Mark IV" adds a ledge for a tea break during the ascent to the cockpit!
Hah!
Hah!
 
Assuming the Russian SAM development path is the same, at some point your V bombers have to switch from high altitude cruising in gleaming flash white to low altitude duck and dive and camo paint top an bottom. Trouble is, stylish as it is, the Victor's airframe can't take the stress. But the Vulcan's can. Which is why the Victors became tankers and the Vulcans flew Black Buck.

Actually I think the Victor could have been adapted to low level, there was a proposal for clipped wingtips which would reduce buffet and flex at low level but this wasn't adopted for the bomber version. I'm guessing that if the RAF said they wanted the B2 versions of the Vulcan and Victor optimised for low level HP and Avro could have come up with versions if not totally suitable then more suitable than OTL B2s optimised for high level.

In the event when Victors were converted to tankers it was found their wings flexed too much so the proposal to clip the wingtips that was rejected for the bomber variants were undertaken on the tankers.
 
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