Grant entrenched at Shiloh

What if AS Johnston hit entrenched troops the first day at Shiloh? Grant doesn't know he is going to be attacked but merely using standard precautions used later in the war. Assume half are in the trenches and the other having breakfast or going to the bathroom or something.
 
One way this might happen is if Grant is there at the scene from the first and takes time to supervise it. If his army takes reasonable defensive precautions Shiloh will be over on the first day with a decisive, crushing victory for the Union.
 
One way this might happen is if Grant is there at the scene from the first and takes time to supervise it. If his army takes reasonable defensive precautions Shiloh will be over on the first day with a decisive, crushing victory for the Union.


One good thing for AS Johnston is his death there is probably butterflied away.
 
Well, just look at OTLs battle and the hornets nest and multiply that with the entrie army instead of just a brigade(or division, cant remember) of it.
 
One of the things Grant is notorious for as a general during the first half of the war is thinking only of what he could do to the enemy, not what the enemy could do to him. This helped him against lee later, when he didn't succumb to fear, but it's also the reason why he was surprised at Shiloh and Donelson, and the reason why it's incredibly unlikely that he would build defensive fortificatiosbn at Shiloh. Also, Grant and most other westerners thought the Confederacy was about to collapse in the west; so why would they try to be defensive?
 
One of the things Grant is notorious for as a general during the first half of the war is thinking only of what he could do to the enemy, not what the enemy could do to him. This helped him against lee later, when he didn't succumb to fear, but it's also the reason why he was surprised at Shiloh and Donelson, and the reason why it's incredibly unlikely that he would build defensive fortificatiosbn at Shiloh. Also, Grant and most other westerners thought the Confederacy was about to collapse in the west; so why would they try to be defensive?

It's *a* reason, but he was also there at the battle relatively late due to Halleck's shenanigans. If he has the chance to actually be there and draw his own conclusions from those CS cavalry probes and decides as a matter of caution to alter his dispositions to fit better the terrain A.S. Johnston will be on the receiving end of the worst defeat of the war and will likely replace Bragg ITTL as the goat for Confederate defeat.
 
It's *a* reason, but he was also there at the battle relatively late due to Halleck's shenanigans.

I keep hearing about all the negative effects on the Northern war effort due to Halleck's opinions and interference. I am curious about what people think about the net effect of Halleck's activities on the war effort -- were they a net good or a net bad?
 
One of the things Grant is notorious for as a general during the first half of the war is thinking only of what he could do to the enemy, not what the enemy could do to him. This helped him against lee later, when he didn't succumb to fear, but it's also the reason why he was surprised at Shiloh and Donelson, and the reason why it's incredibly unlikely that he would build defensive fortificatiosbn at Shiloh. Also, Grant and most other westerners thought the Confederacy was about to collapse in the west; so why would they try to be defensive?

The trenches wouldn't be comprehensive fortifications or something of that matter. The trenches (I assume) would be simple shoveled out temporary lines that would be used as a simple precaution. His troops in the East used trenches, why not at Shiloh?
 
I keep hearing about all the negative effects on the Northern war effort due to Halleck's opinions and interference. I am curious about what people think about the net effect of Halleck's activities on the war effort -- were they a net good or a net bad?

A net evil. Bad is too mild a term for it.
 
The trenches wouldn't be comprehensive fortifications or something of that matter. The trenches (I assume) would be simple shoveled out temporary lines that would be used as a simple precaution. His troops in the East used trenches, why not at Shiloh?


Yeah, I was thinking about the kind of trenches you can reasonably dig in a few hours.
 
Grant wins Shiloh decisively. Another great Union victory in early 1862. Grant is not relieved of comamnd by being "kicked upstairs." He moves aggressively down the Mississippi River, probably taking Vicksburg before the year is out. He is seen as the great general of the Union armies with several impresssive victories. Lincoln probably promotes him by 1863. He is then either given the task of taking Atlanta, or perhaps Lincoln asks that he takes over the Army of the Potomac. (Imagine what Grant would do with Hooker's army at Chancellorsville? The war might be over before 1863 ends).
 
Grant wins Shiloh decisively. Another great Union victory in early 1862. Grant is not relieved of comamnd by being "kicked upstairs." He moves aggressively down the Mississippi River, probably taking Vicksburg before the year is out. He is seen as the great general of the Union armies with several impresssive victories. Lincoln probably promotes him by 1863. He is then either given the task of taking Atlanta, or perhaps Lincoln asks that he takes over the Army of the Potomac. (Imagine what Grant would do with Hooker's army at Chancellorsville? The war might be over before 1863 ends).

If Grant executes the Chancellorsville campaign the war will definitely be over by 1863's end. The same plan with someone whose reaction would be to actually get Lee out into the open will pulverize an army outnumbered by the worst margin in the entire war. Lee didn't do well in open-field fights against troops nearly even in numbers, if he has to fight with just 60,000 against 120,000 out in the open, or even just 70,000.....

:cool: if you're a Grant supporter.

:(:eek::eek: if you're the poor sorry SOBs in the ANV.
 
If Grant executes the Chancellorsville campaign the war will definitely be over by 1863's end. The same plan with someone whose reaction would be to actually get Lee out into the open will pulverize an army outnumbered by the worst margin in the entire war. Lee didn't do well in open-field fights against troops nearly even in numbers, if he has to fight with just 60,000 against 120,000 out in the open, or even just 70,000.....

:cool: if you're a Grant supporter.

:(:eek::eek: if you're the poor sorry SOBs in the ANV.

Yep, unlike Hooker Grant won't panic as Grant NEVER panicked!
 
Yep, unlike Hooker Grant won't panic as Grant NEVER panicked!

Though in this case the ATL Battle will be the largest single one of the entire war, involving 180,000 people total. The Army of Northern Virginia would not be prepared to fight an AoTP that is aggressive and ready and willing to hit it strongly and sharply. Add to this that the ANV will be scrambling and shocked as it realizes the degree to which it's now outflanked and force to fight in the open against superior numbers under aggressive command.....:cool::D
 
Though in this case the ATL Battle will be the largest single one of the entire war, involving 180,000 people total. The Army of Northern Virginia would not be prepared to fight an AoTP that is aggressive and ready and willing to hit it strongly and sharply. Add to this that the ANV will be scrambling and shocked as it realizes the degree to which it's now outflanked and force to fight in the open against superior numbers under aggressive command.....:cool::D

Yeah, they are going to high tail it to Richmond and as badly outnumbered as they would be I don't think they would hold it long.
 
Yeah, they are going to high tail it to Richmond and as badly outnumbered as they would be I don't think they would hold it long.

Eh, I can't see them high-tailing it. Say what you will about Lee's army, those men did know how to stand up and fight. They would, however, be facing an unfamiliar tactical situation in a scenario where the least little mistake would be exploited by Grant with a ruthlessness outpacing that of any of the Eastern generals. Longstreet's forces will be the only cohesive remnant of the ANV left....
 
Eh, I can't see them high-tailing it. Say what you will about Lee's army, those men did know how to stand up and fight. They would, however, be facing an unfamiliar tactical situation in a scenario where the least little mistake would be exploited by Grant with a ruthlessness outpacing that of any of the Eastern generals. Longstreet's forces will be the only cohesive remnant of the ANV left....

You are probably right, it won't be a complete rout but I do think they will try to get to Richmond ASAP.
 
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