Grant at Gettysburg

Gettysburg was almost an accident caused by two divisonal level commanders on each side. Admitly though Butler did set the battle because he saw the advantageous terrain. I'm sure there are some other hills in southern Penn to fight on.

Agree. What's really at issue IMO is when Grant takes command. Does he prevent Brandy Station? It was defeat there OTL which provoked Stuart into his stupid "ride around the Federals" & kept him out of Gettysburg. Of course, even with Grant present, had Lee shown a trifle more sense, he'd have pushed his lead elements (Reynolds? can't recall offhand) to be on the hill enfilading Cemetery Ridge by nightfall the first day (they almost were OTL), & it wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference who commanded the Federals; they'd have had to pull back. I see no reason the breaks should all go to the Federals, & if we've changed enough to have Grant as GinC, fair's fair giving Lee a nudge. So, the Feds pull back.

That said, the question becomes, "What does Grant do next?" This is one for a real ACW buff (which I am not, sorry to say). Where would Grant have been able to stand? And does that give him the ability to produce a defeat Lee psychologically can't recover from? It's usually presumed a Confederate victory here means the South survives. (I like the Gingrich et al. approach, where it means a fatal meatgrinder that brings Lee to his senses, better.)

Suppose this shatters the South. Booth doesn't assassinate Lincoln. Reconstruction is much milder. No Jim Crow. No 100 years of segregation. TTL's Rosa Parks & James Meredith in the 1870s or 1880s? Integrated AFUS in WW1? (Bullard the top AAC ace? :winkytongue: Flying for an all-black Lafayette Escadrille?) And one that's a bit off the wall: the 14th Amendment isn't written, or at least doesn't allow for "corporate citizens", so companies can't sue for their "civil rights"...

...it would make Longstreet's idea of moving around the extreme left and flanking from the rear more advisable...
Absent Stuart, Lee would never risk it. Which brings me back to my initial point.

I am something of a Tolstoyan when it comes to events in general (No, Lee DOESN'T take Washington, the Japs DO NOT take Australia, and Hitler DOESN"T take London), but a believer in the Great Man Theory when it comes to particular actions (Yes, Buford DOES choose Gettysburg, Wellington DOES reach Waterloo in time, and Morgan ALWAYS pastes Tarleton).
Absolutely right. Some things are simply impossible, butterflies or no.

Personally, I should let you know that while I honor the Butterfly, I do not accept his image as Mothra.
Wonderful. I wish I'd said that. :( :(

We give him the slightest opening, and he'll be all over us like a posse on a horsethief.
A marvelous turn of phrase, sir. My compliments.
I wonder if Mother will let me Court-Martial Tom?
LOL.

I do like how this reads, as far as I've gotten...
 
Drive 'em from our soil!

Agree. What's really at issue IMO is when Grant takes command. Does he prevent Brandy Station? It was defeat there OTL which provoked Stuart into his stupid "ride around the Federals" & kept him out of Gettysburg. Of course, even with Grant present, had Lee shown a trifle more sense, he'd have pushed his lead elements (Reynolds? can't recall offhand) to be on the hill enfilading Cemetery Ridge by nightfall the first day (they almost were OTL), & it wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference who commanded the Federals; they'd have had to pull back. I see no reason the breaks should all go to the Federals, & if we've changed enough to have Grant as GinC, fair's fair giving Lee a nudge. So, the Feds pull back.

That said, the question becomes, "What does Grant do next?" This is one for a real ACW buff (which I am not, sorry to say). Where would Grant have been able to stand? And does that give him the ability to produce a defeat Lee psychologically can't recover from? It's usually presumed a Confederate victory here means the South survives. (I like the Gingrich et al. approach, where it means a fatal meatgrinder that brings Lee to his senses, better.)

LOL.

I do like how this reads, as far as I've gotten...

Actually, as far as a Gettysburg that results in a Southern victory, I still agree completely with Newt Gingrich, I, omigod, I aaaagh...* Oh, OK, Where was I? Thank God for Tums. As the good Speaker said, Lee could win the battle, but not the war. In Gingrich's books, politics take over and Lee is tasked with "restoring" Maryland to the Confederacy and even taking Washington!

The South had to strip the entire nation of its reserves, creating a "Fourth Corps" under General Beauregard. I hardly need tell you what happens in the end. The circumstances at Gettysburg simply did not allow for an overwhelming war ending victory for the Confederacy. No matter how successful Lee could have been, there were too many Union troops out of his grasp.

Checkout the events prior ITTL. Not only my own writing, but the setup in the discussions by Paul V McNutt and the other contributors. A crushing victory at Shiloh for the North. Grant takes Corinth. Grant uses his "Third" strategy FIRST to take Vicksburg. The Mississippi is restored to Union control nearly a full year sooner. Thanks to Bragg's chicanery, the Confederate Army is intact and/or reconstituted. But it is Sherman, following his own Chattanooga victory, who is building up a base while trying to deal with a frustrating Nathan Bedford Forrest. Yes, no Chickamauga (yet?):D

ITTL, Grant arrived on June 15th, a very important date. Brandy station had occurred on Jun 9th, so the humiliated Stuart is already raring to go. But IOTL, Stuart was given his orders and departed on June 22nd. Ever since, historians have argued what the nature of his orders were. But there IS general agreement on this: Lee did NOT order Stuart to go on a "ride around the enemy" as he had done twice before, and Stuart never expected to find himself running THROUGH the enemy army, instead of around it.


There were two Corps commanders in the AoNV who thought highly of General Grant. Stuart wasn't one of them. There is no evidence he didn't think any less of Grant (He could hardly have ignored Grant's record), but his concern would have been only the AotP's cavalry. He was looking for revenge, for redemption. The AotP's cavalry arm was, after starting out as a laughing stock, becoming a very potent force indeed. It could honestly be said that the elan of the AotP's infantry was lost at Fredericksburg and picked up by the cavalry at Brandy Station.


As far as Lee showing more sense, this was a man who suffered an undiagnosed heart attack during the spring. He belonged in a cardiac ICU, on aspirin and nitroglycerin, at the very least. He did not belong in the field, leading an army. As my earlier posts related, Lee, after Chancellorsville, was suffering the same "Victory Disease" as Imperial Japan in the early days of WWII. There was just no way to convince him that he, and his army, wasn't invincible. All he had to do was show his troops and their colors and any enemy would simply break and run away... The lessons learned from such arrogance are often too painful to behold. But Lee would not listen to the advice of caution. Arrogant men never do.

Neither Grant nor Lee had control over the First Day, it was a conflict of at most divisional and Corps commanders. As far as Ewell's (Second) Corps? This was the first major battle Ewell ever fought as a Corps commander. During that day, he effectively destroyed XI Corps and helped roll them and I Corps up onto the high ground south of Gettysburg. It was his intent to take Culp's Hill with Johnson's Division, but unfortunately for him Johnson only arrived just after dark. One hour earlier, and Gettysburg becomes a moderate Southern victory and the AotP falls back to the Pipe Creek Line (Ironically a much stronger position). Ewell holds a special place in the history of Gettysburg. He is the only Southern subordinate commander to say anything like this: "It took a lot of mistakes to cause Gettysburg, and I made most of them.":eek:


Culp's Hill was the strongest defended portion of the whole battlefield, literally the barb of the fishhook. When Lee went there for a staff meeting, Ewell, two of his divisional commanders (Early and Rodes, Johnson was scouting the hill at that moment) and Third Corps Commander A.P. Hill all were insistent they couldn't take the two hills (Cemetery Hill was a salient into Third Corps) unless the enemy drew forces away to their left flank.


Lee simply did not have enough command/control over his forces. His staff was far too small for their responsibilities. Lee left it to Ewell's judgement. Jackson would have done it. Ewell was no Jackson. Worse, he seemed to follow his subordinate, Early, rather than the other way around. In fairness, it has to be said, since when did the Yankees act with extreme alacrity, and the Rebels take their time? No wonder General Trimble was so upset. The idea that it would be the YANKEES who would "head 'em off at the pass":D must have been very perplexing for Lee.


Hey General Lee, I've got your answer for you:

The enemy, for the very first time, is fighting for THEIR homes:mad:
 
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Onward, ever onward.

1PM to 2PM The Second Day

Major General John Newton, Third Division Commander, Union VI Corps, called out to his senior subordinate, Brigadier General Frank Wheaton. "Just got my orders, Wheaton. And here are yours, good luck." And just like that Newton rode off at a fast gallop.

Wheaton, thoroughly confused, started reading. The orders informed him that as General Newton had just been promoted to command I Corps-guess they're firing Doubleday, Wheaton thought-he was being promoted to command of Third Division. Well, diagonal promotions don't happen often, so lucky for Newton. The orders also included a change of deployment for his men. All of his men now. Just wish I had a chance to get better acquainted with the rest of the division. Hell of a thing, going into battle with so many unknowns, but then Newton has it even worse.

Question was, was Meade going to keep us together?
 
Time ticks down...

2 PM to 3 PM The Second Day

As Wheaton's men began to fill into their ranks at their assigned positions, he saw more troops filling in to his own left. Riding over, he recognized their battleflags and quickly sought out their commander. Seeing his mount empty, he scanned the area. Out of a hastily erected tent the man he was looking for emerged. "General Wright? Are you feeling well?" Wheaton asked.

"Nothing a year's sleep wouldn't cure. Are you thinking what I'm thinking about our orders, Wheaton?" "Yes, I would say so. And I think I can honestly say this is the first sign I've seen that Grant has, or is, taking charge. No complaints about Meade, mind you, but I can't think of any other commander we've had that would set up something like this. I just hope it works..."

Wheaton looked down at Wright's troops, as the lines grew longer and longer.
 
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I'm not going to complain too loud, because I like what you're doing. What I was getting at was a) does Grant's being in charge butterfly Gettysburg entire & b) does Lee, by ordering an occupation of Culp's Hill (TY for naming it :winkytongue:) at any cost? Answer to a) appears to be no. (That said, without Stuart, I think Lee's choice of the right flank move is extraordinarily unlikely unless it was to extract a trapped army. However...) I do agree Lee was in the grip of "victory disease" of some kind; he may've believed he could pull off the flank move. The answer to b) also appears no. Moreover, you've answered the one question I've always really wanted answered about the battle: if Lee had controlled Culp's Hill, would it have made a big difference? Answer: yes. It would have led to an even worse slaughter at Pipe Creek.
 
Time will tell

I'm not going to complain too loud, because I like what you're doing. What I was getting at was a) does Grant's being in charge butterfly Gettysburg entire? Answer to a) appears to be no.
Grant's command and control of the AotP is limited at this point. He doesn't know the commanders, and has quickly learned (as IOTL) he can trust Meade to know what he is doing. Grant only is stepping in when he sees rank insubordination or a lag of aggressiveness. There are many things going on in the Eastern Theater outside the scope of Gettysburg. As IOTL, Grant is concerning himself with those problems even as he is looking over Meade's shoulder. Meade didn't mind that so much, as long as Grant didn't practice micro-management. Also, Meade was every so grateful that HE wasn't getting all the wires from Washington.

Grant's influence will grow as the battle goes on, but since the initiative is still with Lee, Grant is simply making changes that make Lee's moves less easy, but not impossible.
 
I'm not going to complain too loud, because I like what you're doing. What I was getting at was a) does Grant's being in charge butterfly Gettysburg entire & b) does Lee, by ordering an occupation of Culp's Hill (TY for naming it :winkytongue:) at any cost? Answer to a) appears to be no. (That said, without Stuart, I think Lee's choice of the right flank move is extraordinarily unlikely unless it was to extract a trapped army. However...) I do agree Lee was in the grip of "victory disease" of some kind; he may've believed he could pull off the flank move. The answer to b) also appears no. Moreover, you've answered the one question I've always really wanted answered about the battle: if Lee had controlled Culp's Hill, would it have made a big difference? Answer: yes. It would have led to an even worse slaughter at Pipe Creek.

If I'm reading your language right you're saying a move by the AoNV to THEIR right flank is extraordinarily unlikely except for extracting a trapped army. Well, Lee was a man of the epee, the foil, even the sabre. He would dance around his opponents slicing them till they bled out, all the while avoiding serious harm to himself, if possible. The only place to manuever WAS the Confederate right flank. Too much high ground AND forest on the left, and Gettysburg town itself preventing Rodes' Division there from playing an active offensive role.
 
Stuart is joyriding again-Longstreet

I'm not going to complain too loud, because I like what you're doing. What I was getting at was does Grant's being in charge butterfly Gettysburg entire & b) does Lee, by ordering an occupation of Culp's Hill (TY for naming it :winkytongue:) at any cost? The answer to b) also appears no. Moreover, you've answered the one question I've always really wanted answered about the battle: if Lee had controlled Culp's Hill, would it have made a big difference? Answer: yes. It would have led to an even worse slaughter at Pipe Creek.

Lee was not an officer to give such orders (at any cost) to his Corps commanders (until Pickett's Charge, that is). Lee was in Union territory, not friendy slave-owning Maryland, not rock solid Confederate Virginia. No friendly locals to tell you: "General! Don't go there! That's a swamp! Over there is a low canyon 60 feet deep! Here! I'll show ya a way around 'em by a back trail I know!." Not in Pennsylvania.:p

Lee told, through messengers, that Ewell was to "Take that hill, if practicable". In the Second Battle of Winchester, Ewell destroyed a division of the Union VIII Corps. This set off the signal of the beginning of the invasion that led to Gettysburg. Ewell's victory would have seemed to secure him a reputation in Lee's eyes as an aggressive commander. So if, in Lee's view, Ewell did not attack, then there must have been good reason. In fact, there was. Even without fortifications, the natural defenses of Culp's Hill were actually the most unassailable in the entire battlefield. Only the weakness of the initial Union manpower made a successful attack likely. But without Stuart... :mad:

In the end, Lee's tactical blindness without Stuart insured that only instinctive observations could guide him.

As far as the "Pipe Creek Line"? Well, there's something about that I'll mention later.
 
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Guns of the North

3PM The Second Day
The Battle Begins

Longstreet looked across the field as Hood's batteries opened up on the enemy. Soon enough, McLaws' did the same. The powder of the cannon quickly floated over the battlefield and made judging fire and effect difficult, always a problem with long range fire, Longstreet thought. Well, the main idea is to shake the Yankees up until our boys can make contact. At least, with V Corps up on the rocky hill, we know where they are. They'll have a tough time trying to roll up our flank. Tough, but not impossible. Where was Stuart? Where was Sedgwick? So many things could go wrong today. If Sam can just ignore the big round hill, and try to "bounce" off the rocky one. What we need is a V Corps commander to show off the same bad case of nerves Hooker did at Chancellorsville. If he does, and Sedgwick doesn't show, we may just be alright. Maybe that's what's running through the old man's mind? Helluva gamble.

MEANWHILE

Nobody had ever seen Sam Hood so angry as he was now. He thought: "Never mind position! The enemy's gotta be throwin' three times the weight in the air I am! This 'forest' is nuthin' of the kind. When a shell hits, the tree explodes into wooden canister! The Yankees are pouring it in hot and heavy. Say what you will about Yankees, they've always known their guns! They got so many guns firing, they hardly need to aim, just point and shoot! Well General Lee, you wanted an en echelon attack with no flank, you got it."

The men of Hood's Division continued to advance, some bent over, as if facing a storm of steel, rather than rain. Others, relatively shielded by trees and favorable depressions or elevations, kept a good formation as they advanced. Brigade, regimental, and company commanders desperately rode or ran back and forth trying all they could do to maintain formation. Units were becoming increasingly broken up as casualties built up, terrain took its toll on men trying to find their way across the battlefield, and enemy fire blew enormous holes through the ranks.


Unmolested Yankee formations in II Corps moved back to allow the placement of Corps artillery. Added to that, as many guns of the Artillery Reserve that could be brought to bear unleashed their fire on the First Corps. The artillery of A.P. Hill's Corps tried to engage in counter-battery fire, but the effect of smoke in that area plus the lower standard of training for the AoNV's artillery arm (less ammunition for practice use) caused the majority of the AoNV's fire to overshoot into the AotP's field hospital.

As Lee predicted, the closer Hood and McLaws got to Cemetery Ridge, the lighter the enfilade fire got. Both sides artillery were now engaged in a brutal counter-battery fire duel, essentially ignoring the approaching infantry, except for III Corps' Artillery Brigade.

As Hood passed over Slyder's Lane, he could see the round hills. Much as he might want to do otherwise, he had to go forward. Ignore the Big Round Hill. Ignore the rocky hill as much as possible. But by God, I am NOT going to ignore those boulders! (Devil's Den). They represent a knife right through my back! If we can blow through them, maybe we can rush up Plum Run and reach the Taneytown Road! McLaws will be through the peach orchards, woods, and wheat fields, Anderson's Division will get movin', and Lee will have his en echelon attack! But just how steep is that rocky hill (Little Round Top)? COULD we get up it if we wanted? If we had to? Could the Yankees attack out of that mess?

One thing McLaws and I both know. No chance on God's own earth someone like Dan Sickles could ever whip us.

He looked over to Law's Brigade, as it advanced on the rock field. If there's anyone who has the hardest job today...
 
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Some ACW experts may scream that the battle did not begin in earnest until 4:15pm on the second day. True. This is a butterfly in favor of the AoNV. With Grant over there, there is just a little bit more respect for the enemy, more impetus for the Rebels. Once the avenue of advance is determined to be under enemy line of sight, combined with III Corps being in its original assigned station, this gives Longstreet's troops the chance to attack earlier.
 
Hell has come to visit

3PM The Second Day

The Devil's Den

As the Rebels charged, with their ever-present yell, Brigadier General Wylie Crawford (Commanding Officer, Third Division, V Corps) watched. Well, they're finally comin', he thought. My God, I'm a surgeon, not a soldier. How did I ever convince myself I could do this? My poor boys have been on garrison duty for months, and now they've just been thrown straight into a cauldron! I can't use artillery, cavalry is useless, and the infantry? They got themselves a bloody melee so vicious they might as well be fightin' Indians!

At least Sykes is keepin' the gun hot. I've never seen so much shell burstin' over the enemies heads. I guess maybe the rocks are makin' it easier for them to sight their targets and time their fuses. But once THEY get in the rocks, the guns are useless too. Damned powder fogbanks! The longer the guns fire, the harder it is to see anything. Why doesn't Sykes send me any more men? He just sits-****

MEANWHILE

General McLaws watched his boys crossing over the orchards and wheat fields, facing only limited artillery fire. He smiled to himself, thinking: "Well, General Lee, looks like you were right again. We've been unmolested for the most part since we left Seminary Ridge." McLaws gazed over to his right, and saw the heavy fogbank of gunpowder by the rocky hill. Sam, he thought, looks like yer' paying the price for our easy time of it. God help you. But if you can keep Sykes busy, and help us pry Sickles off his connection to the rocky hill, that'll be the signal for Anderson's Division of A.P. Hill's Corps to get started, and then the Yankees will start skedaddling off that whole ridge (Cemetery Ridge) across yonder.

It was at this moment his troops began to come out into the open, in full view of the enemies' V, III, and II Corps...
 
The cauldron boils...

4PM to 5PM

The Devil's Den continues

Law was doing all he could, driving the enemy through the rock field as fast as he could, but he was rapidly losing control of the battle. There was no real cover in the rock field from the rocky hill above. Speed and drive is our only protection now. We got the Yankees runnin' here. Just keep doing it. We have everyone in good order, considering what a horror this ground is, everyone except, wait, where the HELL were the 15th and 47th Alabama!? They're supposed to be the extreme right flank of the whole damn army! Since when do officers the likes of Oates and Jackson go running off like cavalry guerillas? They better come back with Ulysses S. Grant if they expect to avoid a court-martial!
At least the rest of Hood's Division was making its way down that creek called "Plum Run", but what a hailstorm they're catchin' from that damn rocky hill. The more my boys drive the Yankees out of these rocks, the bigger a pull we'll have from that doubly-damned rocky hill. How can my boys be expected to show a naked flank to Sykes before they turn around and go after Sykes' troops, regardless of their orders?

MEANWHILE The Plum Run

General Hood was still driving his men on, his determination reinforced by a messenger from General Law. The message informed him that Law expected to come up on the Plum Run behind him and asking for confirmation that he was to ignore the rocky hill in favor of protecting Hood's right and rear flanks? In frustration, Hood sent the messenger back with his compliments and a repeat of the standing orders to drive on Cemetery Ridge.

Hood was worried. The boys might just get mad enough from all that fire coming from the rocky hill that they will decide to go to the Taneytown Road, our ultimate objective, the HARD way. Meaning OVER the rocky hill, not around it. How's a junior officer supposed to stop 'em when even they can't stand the thought of the Yankees usin' 'em for target practice? It's not as if assaulting the rocky hill is COWARDLY, after all. Just plum crazy.

Well, we've still some contact with the right flank of McLaws' Division. But all this "fog" over the field is keeping me from seeing McLaws' men as much as I'd like, Hood thought.

Wait a minute, as he looked up on the battle flags of the rocky hill, just how many troops do they have up there?
 
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Grant's command and control of the AotP is limited at this point.
Actually, I was thinking more in terms of him being there at all. The butterflies (not even approaching Mothra size ;D) to put him there change the strategic situation enough IMO the battle might never happen at all. Even if Lee decides to attack north as OTL.

As for the right flank move, I mean on the battlefield itself. Once the Federals are on Cemetery Ridge, he can either assault Culp's Hill (impractical), assault the center (suicide), or try & turn the right flank. As I understood it, he rejected the flank move because it was too exposed (with Feds on the Round Top) & because he didn't know where the Feds were; for those who may not know, recall, Grant's forces were coming from the same direction Lee's right would've been moving, so he risked blundering into an even worse mess, & he knew it.

FYI, I take the POV of whichever SO I'm talking about, so Grant sees the Round Tops on his left, Lee his right...
 
Actually, I was thinking more in terms of him being there at all. The butterflies (not even approaching Mothra size ;D) to put him there change the strategic situation enough IMO the battle might never happen at all. Even if Lee decides to attack north as OTL.

The whole point ITTL was to reflect the outcome of Grant being at Gettysburg. I suggest you start from the beggining of page one and work your way forward. Your doubts should be answered. If there are any other questions you have, please feel free to ask. Thank you.
:):):)
 
As for the right flank move, I mean on the battlefield itself. Once the Federals are on Cemetery Ridge, he can either assault Culp's Hill (impractical), assault the center (suicide), or try & turn the right flank. As I understood it, he rejected the flank move because it was too exposed (with Feds on the Round Top) & because he didn't know where the Feds were; for those who may not know, recall, Grant's forces were coming from the same direction Lee's right would've been moving, so he risked blundering into an even woheightsrse mess, & he knew it.

FYI, I take the POV of whichever SO I'm talking about, so Grant sees the Round Tops on his left, Lee his right...
I think you should know you are assuming a level of tactical knowledge of the ground, the AotP's strength, and their positions that LEE DID NOT HAVE!:mad: He did not know of the AotP's strength or terrain on Culp's Hill, but he DID understand the defences were, ITTL, strong enough to hold off Ewell's Corps. For Ewell to take Culp's Hill, the enemy HAD to strip troops from the objective.

As to the right flank movement, again we come back to Shelby Foote, and his famous phrase: "Gettysburg was the price the South had to pay to have Robert E. Lee as it's commander." MEADE, or any other AotP commander except Burnside, wouldn't have done it. LEE wouldn't have done it prior to Chancellorsville. But AFTER that battle, nothing and no one could convince Lee that HE couldn't do anything, and his BOYS couldn't do anything. As Foote wrote and said, "When Lee's blood was up, nothing could stop him."

Lee's long list of victories were largely based on attacks no sane person would ever launch, hence the AotP was taken by surprise again and again.

As far as the right flank attack paralleling the AotP reinforcements? They were on the opposing sides of the Round Tops. Hood's Division passed through the Devil's Den, and Plum Run. McLaws passed across the Peach Orchards, the woods, and the Wheat Fields, and closed on to Cemetery Ridge.

The AotP reinforcements were coming in on parallel pikes (19th Century cobblestone roads) behind Cemetery Ridge. Mostly these movements were out of sight of the AoNV.
 
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One point I should have made clear. Why Gettysburg? It's the largest road hub in southcentral Pennsylvania (Seven different roads!). North is the unfordable Susquehanna River (With all the bridges blown.). East lets the AotP cut the AoNV off from home. West is to retreat. South is right into the AotP (OTL).
 
Where have we seen this before?

3PM to 4PM

Big Round Top


Colonel Chamberlain could see his brother rushing up at a pace indicating something far more than merely serious. I guess this is it, he thought. "Lawrence, Colonel, Sir! Captain Spears begs to report Reb infantry closing in to the summit, sir!. Our sharpshooters are starting to take some shots already, but with all these trees..." Lt. Chamberlain said, his breath laboring. "Relax, Tom. Those very trees make it impossible for the enemy to employ artillery. Just have all the runners go out to alert the men and have the buglers sound officer's call." His brother nodded and went off.

{He then turned to the corporal of the guard, keeping control of the six hardheads from the old 2nd Maine who still refused to take the colors of the 20th Maine. "Anyone who joins us there will be no court-martial." He looked on all six men. Two looked down with disinterest. One looked back with active hate. The other three... one fat man stood up, and said no one could call him a coward. The second stood up and said it beat sitting around all day. The third stood up, tightened his cap, and proclaimed 'Why not?'. Chamberlain looked at the refusing three, and thought: Incomprehesible!

Turning to the regimental sergeant major, he ordered muskets for the three former holdouts. "Sir, There are no muskets." Chamberlain looked upon the three, and told them: "Just be patient, there will be muskets available shortly."}{AUTHOR'S NOTE-THIS IS A ROUGH PARAPHRASING OF SHAARA'S WORK "THE KILLER ANGELS". FOR HIS CONFRONTATION WITH THE HOLDOUTS, I FELT STRONGLY SHAARA'S WORK ITSELF STOOD AS A MONUMENT ABOVE ANY POSSIBLE WORK, HENCE A DIRECT QUOTATION}.

As his company commanders came in, he let them know the situation. "Gentlemen, we hold the absolute high ground over the entire battlefield. If the enemy wants to flank the army in any strength they must break us here, on this hill. They can't use cavalry. They can't use artillery. We have had the chance to fortify while they've been force-marching God knows how long. We have the best position we could ask for. We were at Fredricksburg, gentlemen. We all remember what a horror it was. Well, people, make sure your men remember that battle. Make them understand we are about to undergo that battle again. Except the ground here is even STRONGER, and this time, WE are the REBELS!" Suddenly, every face on the summit was a leering smile.:D
 
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Nice stuff

Personally, I like the fact that you're blending in dialog from Shaara. It really allows the reader (who's seen the movie anyway) to picture the action.
 

Blair152

Banned
Agree. What's really at issue IMO is when Grant takes command. Does he prevent Brandy Station? It was defeat there OTL which provoked Stuart into his stupid "ride around the Federals" & kept him out of Gettysburg. Of course, even with Grant present, had Lee shown a trifle more sense, he'd have pushed his lead elements (Reynolds? can't recall offhand) to be on the hill enfilading Cemetery Ridge by nightfall the first day (they almost were OTL), & it wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference who commanded the Federals; they'd have had to pull back. I see no reason the breaks should all go to the Federals, & if we've changed enough to have Grant as GinC, fair's fair giving Lee a nudge. So, the Feds pull back.

That said, the question becomes, "What does Grant do next?" This is one for a real ACW buff (which I am not, sorry to say). Where would Grant have been able to stand? And does that give him the ability to produce a defeat Lee psychologically can't recover from? It's usually presumed a Confederate victory here means the South survives. (I like the Gingrich et al. approach, where it means a fatal meatgrinder that brings Lee to his senses, better.)

Suppose this shatters the South. Booth doesn't assassinate Lincoln. Reconstruction is much milder. No Jim Crow. No 100 years of segregation. TTL's Rosa Parks & James Meredith in the 1870s or 1880s? Integrated AFUS in WW1? (Bullard the top AAC ace? :winkytongue: Flying for an all-black Lafayette Escadrille?) And one that's a bit off the wall: the 14th Amendment isn't written, or at least doesn't allow for "corporate citizens", so companies can't sue for their "civil rights"...


Absent Stuart, Lee would never risk it. Which brings me back to my initial point.


Absolutely right. Some things are simply impossible, butterflies or no.


Wonderful. I wish I'd said that. :( :(


A marvelous turn of phrase, sir. My compliments.

LOL.

I do like how this reads, as far as I've gotten...
In the '90s, the Brady Station battlefield, and the top of the Bull Run battlefield, were almost lost developers. One of the first battles in the West was the Battle of Pea Ridge, in Arkansas.
 
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