Grand Fleet's 35 ship southern force at Jutland

The following units of the Grand Fleet missed Jutland due to being in refit or assigned to protect other area:
  • 4 x Dreadnoughts:
    • HMS Dreadnought
    • HMS Emperor of India
    • HMS Queen Elizabeth
    • HMS Royal Sovereign (just completed)
  • 1 x Battlecruiser
    • HMAS Australia
  • 4 x Armoured cruisers
    • HMS Achilles
    • HMS Minotaur
    • HMS Hampshire
    • HMS Donegal
  • 1 x Seaplane carrier
    • HMS Campania
  • 25 x Destroyers
    • HMS Cockatrice
    • HMS Paragon
    • HMS Victor
    • HMS Musketeer
    • HMS Marmion
    • HMS Mameluke
    • HMS Napier
    • HMS Mischief
    • HMS Negro
    • HMS Nepean
    • HMS Nereus
    • HMS Paladin
    • HMS Penn
    • HMS Pigeon
    • HMS Botha
    • HMS Archer
    • HMS Jackal
    • HMS Phoenix
    • HMS Tigress
    • HMS Beaver
    • HMS Druid
    • HMS Ferret
    • HMS Hind
    • HMS Hornet
    • HMS Sandfly
Instead, this above force of thirty-five is based at the Port of Grimsby, and sails to cut off the southern approaches of the HSF. Its orders are to loiter off the known return path. With this force between the HSF and their escape, can Britain trap the Germans?

734px-Map_of_the_Battle_of_Jutland%2C_1916.svg.png
 
Now.... I know I've set some strong contrarian bait here, so we'll have to park the likelihood of none of these 35 ships being in refit or otherwise unavailable, or needed elsewhere to protect other zones at risk (IOTL, HMS Dreadnought and predreadnoughts were ordered to protect the Nore).
 
Germans at night passed in effect through grand fleet these units wouldn't stop the HSF.

When do the get into posistion and where is said posistion?

Michael
 
Now.... I know I've set some strong contrarian bait here, so we'll have to park the likelihood of none of these 35 ships being in refit or otherwise unavailable, or needed elsewhere to protect other zones at risk (IOTL, HMS Dreadnought and predreadnoughts were ordered to protect the Nore).

All things being equal, these 35 ships being at sea would mean a different 35 in refit,
unless there's an early PoD concerning maintanence schedules and efficiency.
More/Bigger dockyards? Thames Ironworks not going belly up?
There were no new orders, but maybe the opportunity to shift focus to maintanence rather than construction?
Even then, there would probably be some ships in refit.

Call it
BB: 3
BC: 1
AV (Seapane Tender): 1
CA: 3
DD: 20

You'd still have a substantial force though.
 
Germans at night passed in effect through grand fleet these units wouldn't stop the HSF.

When do the get into posistion and where is said posistion?

Michael
My POD has good RN intel that the Germans will return to Wilhelmshaven after their sortie. Thus once the breakout is discovered, this southern force intentionally avoids combat and instead positions itself outside the KM's path through the minefields. The RN force is mostly destroyers, so they'd need to prepare for a night torpedo attack.
 
My POD has good RN intel that the Germans will return to Wilhelmshaven after their sortie. Thus once the breakout is discovered, this southern force intentionally avoids combat and instead positions itself outside the KM's path through the minefields. The RN force is mostly destroyers, so they'd need to prepare for a night torpedo attack.
IIRC Campania didn't sail with the Grand Fleet because of a cockup, said cockup being that she wasn't given the order to sail. Then her captain left Scapa Flow on his own initiative only for Jellicoe to order him to go back to base because she didn't have a destroyer escort which made her vulnerable to submarines. So you can get her to sail with the main body of the Grand Fleet by avoiding the communications cockup.

IIRC Royal Sovereign missed the battle hot because she had just joined the fleet (so had Royal Oak and Revenge had only been with the fleet since March 1916) it was because of faulty machinery. However, had she been available one of the less powerful dreadnoughts would have remained in port so there would have still been 24 dreadnoughts in 3 squadrons of 8.
Now.... I know I've set some strong contrarian bait here, so we'll have to park the likelihood of none of these 35 ships being in refit or otherwise unavailable, or needed elsewhere to protect other zones at risk (IOTL, HMS Dreadnought and pre-dreadnoughts were ordered to protect the Nore).
Dreadnought and the pre-dreadnoughts formed the Third Battle Squadron which was transferred from the Grand Fleet to the Nore Command on 29th April 1916 and moved from Rosyth to Sheerness. According to Wikipaedia...
At the time of the Battle of Jutland, the squadron consisted of: Dreadnought (flagship of Vice-Admiral E. E. Bradford), Africa, Commonwealth, Hibernia, Dominion, Hindustan, Zealandia and Britannia, plus the repeating cruiser Diamond. In addition the 3rd Cruiser Squadron, consisting of the armoured cruisers Antrim, Devonshire and Roxburgh, was attached, together with the destroyers Beaver, Druid, Ferret, Hind, Hornet and Sandfly from the 1st Destroyer Flotilla, and Mastiff and Matchless from the 10th Destroyer Flotilla.
I count that as one dreadnought, 7 pre-dreadnoughts, 3 armoured cruisers, one light cruiser and 8 destroyers. Dreadnought and the 8 destroyers are mentioned in the OP, but not the pre-dreadnoughts, armoured cruisers and light cruisers.

You haven't mentioned the Harwich Force. According to Naval Battles of the First World War by Geoffrey Bennett it had 5 light cruisers and 19 destroyers available on the day of the battle and its commander Commodore Tyrwhitt repeatedly asked his superiors for permission to sail but he wasn't allowed to leave Harwich until after dawn on 1st June.

If combined the forces at Harwich and Sheerness come to a total of one dreadnought, 7 pre-dreadnoughts, 3 armoured cruisers, 6 light cruisers and 27 destroyers. They could sail from their OTL bases and be between the High Seas Fleet and its escape route on the morning of 1st June 1916 given enough time. IIRC there would have been enough time if co-operation between the intelligence and operations branches of the Admiralty's War Staff had been better with the bonus that the Grand Fleet itself would have been ordered to sea earlier too.
 
If and it is a very 'BIG IF' the Admiralty is prepared to sacrifice the pre-dreadnaughts of the Nore Command to slow the HSF in the night/morning after the battle. Then as long as the Grand Fleet listens to and comes to the Aid of the Nore Command in a timely fashion then it could be devastating for the HSF. 27 Destroyers supported by 6 light cruisers even in daylight can do a lot of damage with torpedoes.
 
If and it is a very 'BIG IF' the Admiralty is prepared to sacrifice the pre-dreadnaughts of the Nore Command to slow the HSF in the night/morning after the battle. Then as long as the Grand Fleet listens to and comes to the Aid of the Nore Command in a timely fashion then it could be devastating for the HSF. 27 Destroyers supported by 6 light cruisers even in daylight can do a lot of damage with torpedoes.
I agree.
My POD has good RN intel that the Germans will return to Wilhelmshaven after their sortie. Thus once the breakout is discovered, this southern force intentionally avoids combat and instead positions itself outside the KM's path through the minefields. The RN force is mostly destroyers, so they'd need to prepare for a night torpedo attack.
The way I interpret that as the Admiralty is setting a trap for the High Seas Fleet. That is they intend to catch the High Seas Fleet between the Grand Fleet and the combined Channel and Harwich Forces.

The High Seas Fleet will be weakened because ships have been sunk and damaged in the fight with the Grand Fleet the day before. The capital ships might be low on ammunition and the destroyers will have fired many of their torpedoes. Meanwhile Bradford's force will be undamaged, with full magazines and no torpedoes fired. As he knows when the Germans are coming and from what direction he might be able to cross the Germans T, which if he does will remove some of the enemy's advantage in firepower.
 
All Dreadnought and the Wobbly 8 (7 here) would achieve would be to pinpoint the High Seas Fleet while dying gallantly. If the home fleet then manage to engage with and destroy a significant part of the HSF then the sacrifice would ultimately be considered worth it. If not then they've just handed the Germans an even larger propaganda victory to shout about to the neutrals.
 
Top