Have Gothic(or a linguistic descendant) become the language spoken by the majority of Anatolias population.
Gothic becomes the majority language of Anatolia
- Thread starter Hvalrossen
- Start date
You'd need a collapse of Rome in the Third Century Crisis, and Goths (historical Goths or allohistorical branch) settling in Anatolia, creating some Romano-Gothic state, with Greek, for some reason, ceasing to be the administrative language soon enough to enforce Gothic use among Gotho-Roman nobility.µµ
Anything past this point would result Goths (as virtually any other Barbarians) being too romanized and integrated within Roman structures (even before the Vth century) stopping using a Germanic language safe some ceremonial and symbolical use after a matter of mere generations, only leaving some debatable superstrat.
Anything past this point would result Goths (as virtually any other Barbarians) being too romanized and integrated within Roman structures (even before the Vth century) stopping using a Germanic language safe some ceremonial and symbolical use after a matter of mere generations, only leaving some debatable superstrat.
Marc
Donor
All right, small reality check:
Anatolia is huge, a bit bigger than France, 3 times larger than Italy, 2 times more than modern Germany, about the same area as Texas, and very topographically diverse.
Anatolia had about 40% of the entire population of the Eastern Roman Empire - best current estimate is between 8-9 millions.
My semi-informed guess is that move every Goth and Visigoth to Anatolia, and they would be culturally assimilated within a few generations.
Now if you want a backwater pocket state of surviving Goths, like what actually happened for a few centuries in the Crimea, sure, quite possible, but that's it.
Oh, and Anatolia never really did get depopulated - that is just a Western meme. Just as most Greeks in Anatolia weren't descended from the Dorian and Ionian tribes; their "Greekness" was cultural. The same applies arguably to at least a large plurality of modern Turks.
Anatolia is huge, a bit bigger than France, 3 times larger than Italy, 2 times more than modern Germany, about the same area as Texas, and very topographically diverse.
Anatolia had about 40% of the entire population of the Eastern Roman Empire - best current estimate is between 8-9 millions.
My semi-informed guess is that move every Goth and Visigoth to Anatolia, and they would be culturally assimilated within a few generations.
Now if you want a backwater pocket state of surviving Goths, like what actually happened for a few centuries in the Crimea, sure, quite possible, but that's it.
Oh, and Anatolia never really did get depopulated - that is just a Western meme. Just as most Greeks in Anatolia weren't descended from the Dorian and Ionian tribes; their "Greekness" was cultural. The same applies arguably to at least a large plurality of modern Turks.
Last edited:
In fact, it probably never really existed, as such and may have been a combination was of late médiéval german settlers présence, early modern linguistics, german nationalism wishful thinking, and some pedantism.
Marc
Donor
I wouldn't argue counter that estimation, although I do have a prédilection for the tale of the Principality of Theodoro.
(Okay, truly trivia)
Tale of Igor's Campaign mentions Goth maidens singing along the sea (so this would be late 12th c.), which I think is evidence for at least some medieval Goths in southern Rus. It's fairly decent with the geography otherwise so I wouldn't think it's just a piece of antiquarian literary flourish.
Се бо готскія красныя дѣвы въспѣша на брезѣ синему морю, звоня рускымъ златомъ, поютъ время Бусово, лелѣютъ месть Шароканю
I strongly suspect that we're talking of Swedish people there : probably Gautar, maybe Gutes which are closely related ethnonyms, even if there's no much direct relations with Late Antiquity Goths.
The distinction between Swedes and Gautar was still pretty much a thing by the early XIIth, and Goth as a translitteration of their name was common.
Giving of their attested presence in Rus' by many other sources, while a Gothic survival is largely unnatested besides the VIth century, or at best, speculative (contrary to a more broad Germanic presence, tough) : furthermore, this part of Igor's Campaign refers more to the Don basin at large, and not really Crimea, unless I'm missing something (which is very much possible).
Yes there is no real reason to assume it talks about Crimea specifically, only the seashore is a given. Primary Chronicle does mention the Swedish Geats and uses a slightly different word for them (Gutii/Gutiane vs. Goti, Gotfi). That could mean there's a distinction or simply usage changed over the century plus between the documents. In any case the Goths in Igor's campaign are implied to be a foreign people clearly not part of Rus and also ruled by the Cumans (dreaming of vengeance for Sharukhan).
The idea of some kind of mystery (specifically) Swedes settling as a separate people in 12th c. Black Sea littoral seems an absolute fantasy to me and not supported by a single thing. At least "Gothia" is occasionally used as a name for parts of Crimea (such as Bishop John's revolt in the 9th c. or for the principality around Mangup since the 14th c.). De Rubruck and John Galofontibus use "Goths" for some kind of Germanic speakers in Crimea, as does the Life of Antonius the Roman (a Novgorodian Monk) for a merchant who spoke Greek and Russian (and evidently no Germanic language an Italian traveler could recognize).
Last edited:
What did the Turks do, was it really a big population displacement? Can you give a source?
Sure
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey
Alright, fine, you caught me out (sort of). There wasn’t a population movement out in Rûm so much as a population movement in—the Turks became nomads in the interior and maintained their cultural unity this way. At least that’s what I’ve always heard, if you have other sources that’s fine.
EDIT; by depopulation I meant that I’ve heard that the interior became nomadic where it had been farmland, implying that the settled Greeks moved elsewhere
Marc
Donor
by depopulation I meant that I’ve heard that the interior became nomadic where it had been farmland, implying that the settled Greeks moved elsewhere.
About as nomadic as say American cattle ranchers and sheep farmers were, and are. Nomad is a bit of a misnomer, pastoralism - raising livestock, a branch of agriculture - was the prevalent, but not exclusive economic model. Which the highlands of Anatolia were well suited for, and arguably resulted in higher population numbers than in earlier periods. And as I noted/implied before, the majority of Greeks did not move, they stayed in their villages, worked their fields, or were artisans and merchants in the large number of still remaining towns in non-coastal Asia Minor, and after some decades, became first Muslims, and then, culturally melded into being mostly Turkish.
About as nomadic as say American cattle ranchers and sheep farmers were, and are. Nomad is a bit of a misnomer, pastoralism - raising livestock, a branch of agriculture - was the prevalent, but not exclusive economic model. Which the highlands of Anatolia were well suited for, and arguably resulted in higher population numbers than in earlier periods. And as I noted/implied before, the majority of Greeks did not move, they stayed in their villages, worked their fields, or were artisans and merchants in the large number of still remaining towns in non-coastal Asia Minor, and after some decades, became first Muslims, and then, culturally melded into being mostly Turkish.
I have heard about it too, but i don't buy it. Seems to me that some people want to pretend that Turks are really from central asia, with no ancient Anatolian heritage at all.
Ah. No, genetics show that modern Turks are 90%+ native Anatolian so that’s clearly not true.
I always just assumed that the “cultural conversion” happened later than Rûm, like during the Ottoman period.
I know "Goth" instead of "Gutuar" or "Guti" was used, even in Sweden, at this point and not just as a poetic variant. Couldn't be similar in this case?,
There were Varangian or Varangian-labelled presence in the Don river up to the Cuman conquest, tough : the Varangian Island on the Dniepr for instance (altough it's very possibe that the name was an artifact), and you still had a Varangian trade down to Black Sea and Byzantine coast up to the XIIth century (as well as some mercenariship, altough I'd be dubious as well with the "Black Cumans" interpretation of Blakummen, there's mention of "Turki")
Sarcasm aside, yes, we do have accounts of Scandinavians going trough the Dniepr/Don basins in this period : note that I'm not talking about a settled people, but about humans groups tought, rightly or wrongly, by Rusians being particularily associated with this area which is not the case of Goths, unless indulging in the "big-totally-not-made-up-empire-of-Goths-in-the-steppe" that I don't think you do.
It's used as well for Languedoc until the XIIth century, and I never seen being argued that the lords of Carcassone spoke Gothic.
That the rememrance of Goths in the region might have led to call a whole region is perfectly normal (especially giving Byzantine ecclesiastical administration must have been going trough a period of adaptation : experiences does points, tough, that it doesn't mean much about ethnicity or linguistics.
De Rebruck specifically says "there is still some Goths, speaking German", just after noting "there is 40 castles, each one with its own language". It's equally possible, and more possible IMO, that he met with people from Germany and was mixed up with "Gothia" to make them Goths. You could argue that medieval linguistics being what they were, meaning poor at best, that de Rebruck used "German language" could mean anything : but being used to hear German language, I think the specificities of Gothic (and even more a Gothic isolate) would have warranted more than "oh, they speak German".
I've some trouble finding the other, I suppose that is John Galafontibus, and his account of Caucasian peoples? I only found this text, if you could be as kind as to translate it.
Again, medieval linguistics were rather poor with some precise exception, to the point linguistical families could be theorized, but were rather half-assed.
Not that I deny a Gothic survival in Crimea in the Early Middle Ages, or a surviving Gothic identity (or regional identity, rather) up to the XIIth. But the idea that Gothic survived as an isolate in Crimea up to the XVIIIth or even up to classical Middle-Ages.
Last edited:
No idea, especially since this is all by different authors from different generations, but the Geats are Gutii and the Goths are Goths. Russian chronicles really didn't deal with Swedish matters very much at any point, so the Geats are mostly mentioned during the Invitation of the Varangians episode (alongside Swedes and Englishmen) and also in some geographic descriptions of Russia's neighbours.
Varangians were a common and familiar element and by the 13th c. largely transitory. If they were Varangians, they'd have been called Varangians or even Franks or Latins or Germans (all of these ethnonyms turn up in Russian chronicles as names for westerners). The Goths by comparison are treated like a local people (same as Yatviangians and Kasogians and such).
I really don't think they're Varangians, basically.
Not arguing, this is quite likely a Byzantism. They liked the odd antiquarian flourish.
Yes, it's a 15th c. encyclopedia, probably all second-hand.
These are the relevant bits:
"Along and around the Black Sea live two small nations: Tats and some Goths. In their religion, they follow the Greeks and use Greek letters," (this is confirmed btw by a very small number of Germanic names in Crimean gravestones, written in Greek or Hebrew. But this is a very very small number. Then again they're Orthodox and probably have Greek names predominantly). "The Goths can claim to be descended from the Scots and speak like the English." (so a western Germanic language? Gods know really. But some kind of Germanic.). "They live along the shore near Kaffa, and also in Tartary and Cumania."
"In [Tartary] live numerous Christians, specifically: Greeks, diverse Armenians, Zichians, Goths, Tats, Volyaks, Russians, Circassians, Laks, Iassi, Alans, Avars, Kazi-Kumykhs, and almost all of them speak Tartarian."
As you said, medieval linguistics is hunting black cats in dark rooms. But what I'm getting out of all of this is that an area of the Black Sea littoral was known as Gothia (mostly around Mangup, but maybe Kaffa, and maybe Don estuary), continuously since the 4th through to the 17th c.; some of the people who lived there were known as Goths (from the 9th to the 15th c. at least); they were distinct from Varangians; they were Christian and definitely spoke Greek, but maybe also Kypchak and maybe also one or more dialects of some kind of Germanic. If Bosbecq isn't wrong, then that language was known to some individuals in some state all the way into the 17th c.
Gothia also had some kind of local nobility represented by the princes of Theodoro who weren't from Trebizond but local, and left descendants in Russia's gentry.
No source anywhere says that Varangians came and settled in Doros and became known as Goths, or even that the Gutii came through and settled in Doros. Just that there was a country called Gothia since forever, and some people in it spoke some kind of Germanic alongside Greek and other languages.
Last edited:
Seems convincing : I defer to your knowledge on Russian historical linguistics then.
That being said, I think we can agree that it doesn't indicates a survival of Gothic language past the Xth century.
The style and some information makes me think it was borrowing from XIIIth century sources as a large part of books on Asia at this point.
I looked a bit trough it some time ago, I don't really find it convincing : I don't think he made it up, but at the very best we could consider some late eastern Germanic influence on more recent Western Germanic speeches IMO. Maybe not even this.[/QUOTE]
It should be possible to trace the pedigree of the gentry's descendants. When did Crimean Goths intermarry with Russian, or other gentry that would later intermarry with the Russian gentry?