"Goring's Reich" An Alternate World War II

[cortz#9]

I have serious doubt that a ha-go chassis will be able to support the
75mm AA Gun

I would uggest that you use the Chi-Ha instead.

I agree, the Ha-Go is actually a little smaller than the Pz.I. I think the the best one could mount on it would be a 47mm gun like on the Pz.Jgr.I. The 75mm gun would be too long and probably too heavy.
Below is a pic of the Ha-Go with the 75mm gun and armored shield from the Marder-II and below it is the Ha-Go with the 47mm gun and armored shield from the Pz.Jgr.I.
A steel plate could probably be mounted over the engine deck but I think the weight and recoil might be too much but I'm not an expert on these things so I could be wrong.

 

[cortz#9]

The Chi-Ha would make an excellent Hetzer like TD, below is a Chi-Ha with the upper hull and gun from a late war German tank destroyer design by BMW that never went into production.

Interestingly enough the BMW TD was to mount two guns side by side.

 

[sloreck]

It appears here that Japan is reorienting for a campaign against the USSR, and looking to really control/incorporate the Chinese areas it is going to occupy. The reorientation of the naval construction program means that Japan is much less focused on confronting the USA, the US will still be proceeding with improving some Pacific bases (such as Wake), and is building new battleships and aircraft carriers that were started after Japan withdrew from the naval restriction treaties. Furthermore the absence of a war Between Germany and UK/France/Holland means the US can heavily weight naval assets for the Pacific even more so than OTL. Likewise the UK/France/Holland take take more efforts to bulk up SE Asian defenses. All in all makes Japanese ability to attack western powers markedly reduced.

Of course, the key question is whether or not the US and UK/Holland impose the oil embargo that put Japan in a use it or lose it situation. Given japan has more or less ceased active operations in China, as well as withdrawing from some areas (even with scorched earth) and has been negotiating or attempting to with the nationalists, the US may not feel obliged to take a muscular approach to Japan at this point in time. Certainly the UK & Holland will be less inclined to embargo the oil, as they are much less dependent on US goodwill/assistance as they were OTL. As long as Japan can get the oil and other materials it needs, no reason to attack the western colonies.

I wonder if any oil can be shipped from Romania to Japan - yes its a long way but even small shipments are useful and it is a morale builder - Romania is an ally of Germany which is an "ally" of Japan so politically this is very viable. The question is how much is not needed by the anti-Soviet alliance and so is potentially available to be shipped. Also, is any Persian Gulf oil available to the forces fighting the USSR under the aegis of Germany through ordinary purchase?

 

[galveston bay]

It appears here that Japan is reorienting for a campaign against the USSR, and looking to really control/incorporate the Chinese areas it is going to occupy. The reorientation of the naval construction program means that Japan is much less focused on confronting the USA, the US will still be proceeding with improving some Pacific bases (such as Wake), and is building new battleships and aircraft carriers that were started after Japan withdrew from the naval restriction treaties. Furthermore the absence of a war Between Germany and UK/France/Holland means the US can heavily weight naval assets for the Pacific even more so than OTL. Likewise the UK/France/Holland take take more efforts to bulk up SE Asian defenses. All in all makes Japanese ability to attack western powers markedly reduced.

Of course, the key question is whether or not the US and UK/Holland impose the oil embargo that put Japan in a use it or lose it situation. Given japan has more or less ceased active operations in China, as well as withdrawing from some areas (even with scorched earth) and has been negotiating or attempting to with the nationalists, the US may not feel obliged to take a muscular approach to Japan at this point in time. Certainly the UK & Holland will be less inclined to embargo the oil, as they are much less dependent on US goodwill/assistance as they were OTL. As long as Japan can get the oil and other materials it needs, no reason to attack the western colonies.

I wonder if any oil can be shipped from Romania to Japan - yes its a long way but even small shipments are useful and it is a morale builder - Romania is an ally of Germany which is an "ally" of Japan so politically this is very viable. The question is how much is not needed by the anti-Soviet alliance and so is potentially available to be shipped. Also, is any Persian Gulf oil available to the forces fighting the USSR under the aegis of Germany through ordinary purchase?

remember at this point the Japanese are still buying oil from the Dutch East Indies and United States in quantity. Shipping oil via the Black Sea to Japan is simply too expensive and is a last resort, should any be available, as the Germans are the big market for Ploesti

As to reactions... you will just have to wait and see. While there are suspecions that the Japanese might be heading north, there is no real hard indications it is that Western nations are aware of (the Japanese were really good at security, especially since their codes haven't been broken yet)

The US is going to generally improve its military prepardness as a major war has broken out, there have been calls for that for years, and the US budget is in better shape than before, and finally it has been discovered after the Army ran the CCC camps and the Navy has built ships that the military has a useful jobs program element to it (it took FDR a while to figure this out). But the US is in this timeline pretty much where it was in OTL... it has a long way to go to rearm

 

[galveston bay]

I agree, the Ha-Go is actually a little smaller than the Pz.I. I think the the best one could mount on it would be a 47mm gun like on the Pz.Jgr.I. The 75mm gun would be too long and probably too heavy.
Below is a pic of the Ha-Go with the 75mm gun and armored shield from the Marder-II and below it is the Ha-Go with the 47mm gun and armored shield from the Pz.Jgr.I.
A steel plate could probably be mounted over the engine deck but I think the weight and recoil might be too much but I'm not an expert on these things so I could be wrong.

thanks for the drawings.. and I can live with the Chi-Ha conversion. Particularly as it is the primary tank under production in Japan at this time. The smaller Ha-Go will see a lot of tanks already in service get a flamethrower conversion (you remove a machine gun, and replace the ammunition for that MG, along with some main gun rounds, with a fuel reservoir)

The initial vehicle is however open topped, for speedier entry into service but a heavily armored version would be on the drawing board soon enough

 

[cortz#9]

thanks for the drawings.. and I can live with the Chi-Ha conversion. Particularly as it is the primary tank under production in Japan at this time. The smaller Ha-Go will see a lot of tanks already in service get a flamethrower conversion (you remove a machine gun, and replace the ammunition for that MG, along with some main gun rounds, with a fuel reservoir)

The initial vehicle is however open topped, for speedier entry into service but a heavily armored version would be on the drawing board soon enough

Ha-Go would make a good flame-thrower tank and maybe a Bren gun carrier type tank as well.
I could draw up an open top Marder-ish Chi-Ha for you if you like.
Drawing up alt tank designs has become a bit of an addictive habbit for me.

EDIT: Actually the Japanese did turn the Chi-Ha into a an SPG, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_1_Ho-Ni_I

 

[galveston bay]

As spring approaches

Soviet mobilization and Germany prepares for Spring
Stalin orders a full mobilization once it becomes clear the extent of the disaster in the Fall. He makes some command changes as well, bringing Voroshilov to Moscow to serve as commander of the Moscow garrison and he promotes General Vasilisevky head of STAVKA, while promoting General Bodin to command of the Northern TVD. He sends for Zhukov, and gives him command of the STAVKA reserve, while shifting Budyonny to Siberia and promoting General Podlas to command of the Southwestern TVD. He warns Budyonny that he may call for troops from his command if needed. Finally he appoints Boris Shaposhnikov as Defense minister and his primary military advisor.

Soviet mobilization quickly replaces and then add considerably more infantry formation after the losses of the fall, as the Red Army has shifted to a smaller rifle division and concentrated specialists into units under the control of field armies. The Corps becomes a specialized unit akin to a German division while armies control 3 to 5 divisions. Central Asia and most of Siberia has been denuded of all but internal security troops, and even eastern Siberia is seeing transfers.

Information coming out of Tokyo from Richard Sorge is that the Japanese have no interest in further war with the Soviet Union and that the humiliation in Mongolia, the heavy losses suffered in China over the last year, and a rapidly rearming British Empire has resulted in the more militaristic expansionist faction in Tokyo losing power.

This of course is a lie passed on by him from the Japanese, who now control him and his spy network.

(authors note: These are all major commanders from early in the Great Patriotic War of OTL, and Soviet organizational and replacement abilities are from OTL. Sorge was indeed captured later in the war and died at the hands of the Japanese).

Soviet intelligence does determine however from sources in Rome and Berlin that the Italians will be sending an expeditionary force of several mobile divisions, as well as a significant portion of their bomber force to assist the Germans. However, the NKVD and GRU cannot determine the exact location of German panzer forces, or indeed their likely axis of attack.

Goring meanwhile determines that the Eastern Front needs an overall military commander and so does the Luftwaffe assigned to the East. Impressed by Rundstedt's exceptional service in the opening stages of the war, he appoints him commander of the entire Eastern Front, and equally pleased with Kesselring, names him commander of the Luftwaffe in the East. He also promotes Kesselring, Rundstedt, Von Block, Von Leeb and Guderian to the rank of Field Marshal, and Guderian is given Army Group South. Rundstedt and Guderian also manage to get Manstein promoted to an army command, getting around Halder's dislike of him.

Diplomatically, Goring achieves an important goal of getting the Italians to commit by promising them raw materials and most importantly oil from the Soviet Union once those are secured as well as military support in case the British or French act against him or Italy. Discussions with Spain also occur, who is willing to provide a small expeditionary force but who also manages to get secret promises from Germany as well as public support from Italy in case the British or French move against Spain.

The most important diplomatic achievement is the signing of a secret alliance with Japan, which promises to move against the Soviets in Siberia in late June. Earlier dates are requested, but the Japanese indicate that they will not have their armies ready until then. The specific Japanese attack date is set for June 22, 1940.

In a major intelligence achievement, the Poles manage to break several important Soviet codes and begin passing on information to the Germans.

(authors note: as I remarked earlier, the Poles were very important in breaking Ultra. They had an extremely good intelligence service, an important survival tool when living between two hostile great powers)

 

[cortz#9]

Cool update. Looks like Stalin's days are numbered.

 

[kclcmdr]

Cool update. Looks like Stalin's days are numbered.

Only if Imperial Japan does attacks around June 1940 and loses their frontier region bordering Japan's colonial territory plus maybe a Soviet Port City and the IJA drives to cut and isolate the Soviet Siberian Trans-railroad line...

And if trade and supplies never reach the Soviet Union from any neutral nation....

 

[cortz#9]

Only if Imperial Japan does attacks around June 1940 and loses their frontier region bordering Japan's colonial territory plus maybe a Soviet Port City and the IJA drives to cut and isolate the Soviet Siberian Trans-railroad line...

And if trade and supplies never reach the Soviet Union from any neutral nation....

OK change that to "looks like Stalin's days could be numbered".

 

[galveston bay]

Only if Imperial Japan does attacks around June 1940 and loses their frontier region bordering Japan's colonial territory plus maybe a Soviet Port City and the IJA drives to cut and isolate the Soviet Siberian Trans-railroad line...

And if trade and supplies never reach the Soviet Union from any neutral nation....

for now the Soviets still have access to the world via the Black Sea, the Pacific, and to a limited extent via Archangel (during summer) and Persia (although very limited tonnage, although it is an air route). Also an air route via Central Asia, Afghanistan to India, although that is a very long air route.

The polar route isn't an option in the early 1940s

The critical access is however the Black Sea

 

[mrmandias]

Very interesting and unusual. Subbed.

 

[kclcmdr]

OK change that to "looks like Stalin's days could be numbered".

And we shall have to wait and see whether Herr Rommel can garner a command of a Panzer Division and show his mettle against the Soviet forces array against the German Axis Forces...

Good to know that the French might send a FEF to the Eastern Front.
One wonders whether England might send a BEF also to the Eastern Front.

Doubtful for now since they would have to convince their populous the need and quash the Soviet inspired strikers within their own folks being led by their NKVD handlers...

 

[galveston bay]

And we shall have to wait and see whether Herr Rommel can garner a command of a Panzer Division and show his mettle against the Soviet forces array against the German Axis Forces...

Good to know that the French might send a FEF to the Eastern Front.
One wonders whether England might send a BEF also to the Eastern Front.

Doubtful for now since they would have to convince their populous the need and quash the Soviet inspired strikers within their own folks being led by their NKVD handlers...

oops, I meant Spain not France... I was typing while I had something cooking in the oven and forgot to double check everything before posting

Basically the Spanish will send the Blue Division for the same reason Franco did historically. It gets the really rabid Fascists out of the country and elsewhere so hopefully they get killed and don't threaten his authority

 

[galveston bay]

Volunteers


A trickle and then a steady flow of volunteers begin arriving from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Switzerland as well as Greece and Yugoslavia. Most of the volunteers from the Balkans, but a number of French as well, are dedicated Communists who have come to defend the home of the Revolution, much as they did in Spain. The Soviets are somewhat surprised to see them, but organize them into some shock divisions and wait for the proper time and place to use them (have them die gloriously)

A much larger flow is coming into Germany, and equally surprised, the Germans are at a loss initially of what to do with them. Finally after some high level discussions between the Army, Goring and Heydrich and his SS, it is decided to enlarge the Waffen SS, and restrict its recruitment to Germans and other nationalities from outside of the Reich, and for it to be used only on the Eastern Front. A pair of panzer grenadier divisions are formed (1st Leibstandarte and 2nd Das Reich) and they are sent to Army Group South.

authors note: an appalling number of non Germans in OTL volunteered to join the Waffen SS and to fight against Communism. A really large number of these were from Occupied Europe.

 

[sloreck]

If the Japanese do attack in June, then any supply via the Pacific (is lost). I will assume that any supplies the USSR gets from the USA is shipped in Soviet bottoms which of course will cease once the Japanese get involved. In this situation at a minimum you'll see the neutrality act still in force, and the USA will not be wanting to try and start an argument with Japan by using the American flag to ship supplies to Russia. In any case the IJN will rapidly sink any Soviet Navy ships that leave port, as well as use carrier air to hit Soviet port facilities - army air will also be involved. IMO isolated Vladivostok by sea and land will be quite doable ITTL, and eventually it will fall.

Since Romania is in this with Germany against Russia, staging Schnellboot out of Romanian naval bases as Luftwaffe assistance to the Romanian Air Force will make red flag merchant traffic in the Black Sea chancy at best and if the Italians use their islands in the Eastern Med to further interdict any Soviet merchant shipping the Black Sea route will be a trickle at best.

Given that the UK and France are not at war with Germany, and feeling in the USA about the USSR (overall negative) and US neutrality laws, any goods the Soviets manage to purchase overseas will have to be paid for in cash (read gold). They can do that for a while, although their sequestration of the Spanish gold removed to the USSR during the Civil War may result in legal action by the Spanish to attach any physical gold that leaves the USSR.

A final question for the author - ITTL has Katyn happened? If so, if and when it becomes known it will go badly for the USSR unlike OTL where it was quieted due to the USSR being an ally.

 

[galveston bay]

If the Japanese do attack in June, then any supply via the Pacific (is lost). I will assume that any supplies the USSR gets from the USA is shipped in Soviet bottoms which of course will cease once the Japanese get involved. In this situation at a minimum you'll see the neutrality act still in force, and the USA will not be wanting to try and start an argument with Japan by using the American flag to ship supplies to Russia. In any case the IJN will rapidly sink any Soviet Navy ships that leave port, as well as use carrier air to hit Soviet port facilities - army air will also be involved. IMO isolated Vladivostok by sea and land will be quite doable ITTL, and eventually it will fall.

Since Romania is in this with Germany against Russia, staging Schnellboot out of Romanian naval bases as Luftwaffe assistance to the Romanian Air Force will make red flag merchant traffic in the Black Sea chancy at best and if the Italians use their islands in the Eastern Med to further interdict any Soviet merchant shipping the Black Sea route will be a trickle at best.

Given that the UK and France are not at war with Germany, and feeling in the USA about the USSR (overall negative) and US neutrality laws, any goods the Soviets manage to purchase overseas will have to be paid for in cash (read gold). They can do that for a while, although their sequestration of the Spanish gold removed to the USSR during the Civil War may result in legal action by the Spanish to attach any physical gold that leaves the USSR.

A final question for the author - ITTL has Katyn happened? If so, if and when it becomes known it will go badly for the USSR unlike OTL where it was quieted due to the USSR being an ally.

no signs of a Katyn type massacre have been found. Mainly because the Soviets shipped Polish and Balt, along with other POWs further east to western Siberia and Central Asia. They will instead of getting shot down and buried in mass graves get the 'privilege" of doing productive labor for the Soviet Union while starving slowly to death.

Historically the Soviets didn't really start treating their POWs better until after Kursk, when it became clear that having some useful 'reeducated' POWs would be handy when they drove into Germany and elsewhere, and because there was actually a serious labor shortage developing.

 

[kclcmdr]

There should be a lot of American Germans that might join the banners of the Wehrmacht against the communists Soviets.

There might be some South American Germans likewise willing to join the ranks of the Wehrmacht to fight against Stalin's Soviets.

dislike of Soviet Communisms and rumors of the slaughters of the Ukranian folks by starvation and folks purged and slaughtered in the Soviet Gulags will garner volunteers from Europeans against the Soviet State under Stalin.

 

[galveston bay]

There should be a lot of American Germans that might join the banners of the Wehrmacht against the communists Soviets.

There might be some South American Germans likewise willing to join the ranks of the Wehrmacht to fight against Stalin's Soviets.

The Neutrality Act makes that very risky for American citizens (especially after the Spanish Civil War when it became those Americans who took part are being watched closely by the FBI). Also relatively few German Americans are first or second generation. Most German Americans have been in the US at least 3 and as many as 6 generations at this point. Bottom line, you put your citizenship at risk if you volunteer to fight in a foreign uniform for a foreign power unless you have at least covert support from the US government.

But some Germans in Brazil and elsewhere in South America are indeed making their way home.

 

[galveston bay]

Fire in the East: Spring 1940 Soviet Forces

Soviet Forces facing Germany and German allies Spring 1940


STAVKA
Stalin plus Beria, Molotov, Shaposhnikov, Vasilshevksy are the Defense Committee


Northern Strategic Directorate (Northern TVD) (Bodin)
Murmansk Front (Frolov) 25 Rifle divisions, fortress troops, naval infantry division plus support from Northern Fleet


1st Karelia Front (Svir River) (Panin) 45 Rifle divisions
air support: 2nd Air Army
300 fighters, 500 light bombers, 100 medium bombers
2nd Karelia Front (north of Leningrad) (Popov)
20 Guards Rifle divisions, 15 Rifle Divisions
3rd Karelia Front (north of Leningrad) (Govorov)
20 Guards Rifle divisions, 15 Rifle Divisions
air support (Leningrad/Mannerheim Line area)
1st Air Army
300 fighters, 500 light bombers, 100 medium bombers
plus
Leningrad garrison: 10 rifle divisions, flak division, Baltic Fleet naval division, NKVD garrison, Baltic Fleet
Peipus Front (Khozin) 5 fortress brigades, 10 Rifle divisions, 5 Parachute divisions


Western TVD (Timoshenko) (Lake Peipus to Pripet)
Pskov Front (Purkayev) 3 fortress divisions, 15 Rifle divisions, 5 Guards Rifle divisions, 2 Reserve Rifle Divisions,
Baltic Front (Kondrusev) 10 Rifle divisions, 2 reserve Rifle Divisions, 10 Cavalry divisions
Velikeya Front (Lobov) 3 fortress divisions, 25 Rifle divisions
Vitebsk Front (Vatutin) 3 fortress divisions, 40 Rifle divisions, 5 Cavalry divisions
Western Front (Yeremenko) 30 Rifle divisions
Minsk Front (Galitisky) 5 fortress divisions, 25 Rifle divisions,
Pripets Front (Kolpachki) 10 Rifle division, 1 reserve Rifle division
Air Support: 3rd Air Army
500 fighters, 200 light bombers


Southwestern TVD (Podlas, replaced by Kirponos after Podlas is killed in an actual accident in mid April)
Zhitomer Front: (Rakutin) 5 fortress divisions, 5 reserve Rifle divisions, 15 Rifle divisions
Dniester Front: (Tyulenev) 30 Rifle Divisions, 2 Cavalry divisions
Uman Front: (Kalinin) 5 fortress divisions, 25 Rifle divisions,
Odessa Front (Sofronov) 5 fortress divisions, 20 Rifle divisions, 5 Cavalry divisions
Kiev / 1st Ukrainian Front (Petrov) 5 mechanized divisions, 10 motorized rifle divisions, 15 Rifle divisions, 10 motorized Cavalry divisions, (this force includes 1500 tanks of various types, mostly BT series but a large force of T26s and T28s as well)


another 3 cavalry and 15 parachute divisions are busy trying to deal with an Ukrainian Revolt, which has begun but word of which has still not leaked to the West yet. The Ukrainians are withholding food and conducting basically a strike action writ large. The reliability of some Soviet units in the Southwestern TVD is also suspect.
Crimea: 3 Rifle Divisions, Corps sized naval troops garrison at Sevastapol, various security units. (the Crimean Tartars are also becoming restive and unreliable, but no action yet)
Air Support: 4th and 5th Air Armies, 1000 fighters, 400 light and 200 medium bombers


STAVKA Reserve (Zhukov)
Rzhev Front: (Konev) 5 motorized Cavalry divisions, 15 Cavalry divisions, 30 motorized Rifle Divisions, 30 Mechanized divisions, 5 Guards Rifle Divisions, 5 Artillery divisions,
this is the principal mobile striking force for the Red Army, and it has 9,000 tanks of various types (mostly BT series and nearly all the remaining T26s and T28s).
Moscow Garrison (Voroshilov) (includes Tula, Ryazan, Kalinin, and Kaluga), 20 fortress divisions, 40 Rifle Divisions, 3 Flak Corps, 10 mechanized divisions (with 2,000 tanks, mixed T34s and KV1s), 5 artillery divisions, 10 Guards Rifle Divisions, 10 Motorized Cavalry Divisions plus several NKVD divisions