"Goring's Reich" An Alternate World War II

galveston bay

A required pause

Soviet losses Operation Bukrin
2.3 million casualties including 1 million POWs, 400,000 dead or missing (and actually dead), remainder wounded. Plus 3,300 artillery pieces 76 mm or larger, 1,000 anti aircraft guns 37 mm or larger, 3,000 trucks and other soft skinned vehicles, 3,000 tanks (German initial claims turned out to be widely overinflated, these also includes tanks that broke down and were abandoned), plus 2,000 aircraft including 1,000 lost on the ground.

Among the tanks lost are 50 of the new KV1 and 100 of the new T34, both of which are a major shock to the German Army


German and associated national losses are 300,000 of which 100,000 are German, 25,000 are Finnish and the remainder Polish, Rumanian and Balt. This includes 25,000 POWs, 50,000 dead or missing (and actually dead), and the rest wounded. Also lost are 250 tanks and 200 combat aircraft.

Several hundred tanks are having servicibility issues or are now hopelessly obsolete (all the Panzer I and Panzer II)..


By the end of October the Soviets have retreated completely behind the border defenses of the Stalin Line, and unknown to the Germans, over 40 infantry divisions are in European Russia having arrived from Central Asia and eastern Siberia. Those divisions, along with the survivors of Operation Bukrin, are sitting behind Soviet fortifications.

The Germans and their allies call a halt after some initial probing. The Poles and the Balts are badly mauled, with much of their units at the very least decimated, and many reduced to hollow shells or remnants. German infantry divisions have suffered serious losses, while the mechanized forces are in dire need of refitting. Another major issue is that the Germans and their allies have shot off nearly all of their prewar ammunition stockpiles, and production is only barely getting into gear. Already the initial probes of the Stalin Line around Minsk required stripping the entire front of 105 and 155 mm artillery shells, and these are the principal divisional and corps artillery pieces. With Fall rains already beginning, and winter coming soon, Goring agrees with OKW and the various allies to dig in for the winter now while the weather is relatively warm.
 

zert

Maybe it is just me but the ratios seem off. The Russians losing 5 to 10 times more than the Germans when the Russians were prepared for the attack.

I just think the German Alliance would have more losses in the end.

This aside the Winter will one of probing, rebuilding, and repositioning. Russia will need to seek Allies. I wonder if they will try get the Comintern to have Communists from other nations to bolster its Army.
 

galveston bay

zert said:
Maybe it is just me but the ratios seem off. The Russians losing 5 to 10 times more than the Germans when the Russians were prepared for the attack.

I just think the German Alliance would have more losses in the end.

This aside the Winter will one of probing, rebuilding, and repositioning. Russia will need to seek Allies. I wonder if they will try get the Comintern to have Communists from other nations to bolster its Army.
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about 40% of the Soviet losses OTL June 22 - December 31, 1941, with smaller losses in tanks, artillery and aircraft. Axis losses are also at about 40% (historical losses 831,000 June 22 - December 31).

The Poles, Balts and Rumanians took the brunt of the initial two weeks of fighting and suffered most of their losses then. German losses came after the Soviet offensive had shot its bolt and was disorganized.

This campaign only lasted about 3 1/2 months, while OTL campaign was 6 months

All things considered the Soviets did less disastrously badly then OTL. About 34% of their total force retreated successfully, including about 50% of their mechanized and armored forces. This whole force, plus reinforcements, are now dug in behind a fortress line.
 

galveston bay

These are Nazis after all

The Return of European Slavery in World War II


Stalin has already imprisoned millions by 1939, while Hitler placed tens of thousands into camps. With Goring taking over the Reich in late 1939, some modifications to Nazi policy regarding Jews, Gypsies and other undesirables was ordered. Goring is not particularly wedded to the notion of anti-Semitism, but as it is established policy, and many of the Party members are, he finds it useful to go along with it. However, not using for productive labor millions of people strikes him as terribly wasteful. He orders Heydrich to come up with a means of using them for productive labor while removing them from the Greater German Reich, as well as Poland and the Baltic states.

In all there are roughly 4 million people to be considered for this policy, although Goring does extend and expand the exemptions for Jews allowed to live in the Reich. Decorated veterans, those who are Jewish only by blood but are at least 2nd generation Christians, those who are one eighth or less Jewish blood, Gypsies who have abandoned their traditional culture for over 10 years, and those who are classified as of particular value to the Reich (some college professors and scholars) are all allowed to get special documents classifying them as Reich citizens and are not required to wear the identifying Star of David for example.

But the rest all fall under this policy.

Beginning in July 1939, Polish Jews who were in the Polish Army as well as reservists, and as they are captured, Soviet POWs are organized into labor brigades. By October 1.5 million men are in these brigades. Jewish medical personnel form the medical staff for these units (Soviet medical staff for the POWs). Skilled tradesmen (in the case of the Poles) are given better rations, as are Ukrainian, Georgian and Turkic Soviet POWs (who are segregated into their own brigades). Skilled Russian and Jewish industrial workers such as welders, lathe operators, machinists and the like are assigned to special labor brigades rented out by the German government to industrial firms like Krupp. The rest are put to work upgrading railways, converting dirt roads into paved roadways, building bridges and airfields, and most importantly of all, building a vast series of camps designed to ultimately hold 5 million people.

Contracts are also let to German and Polish industrial concerns for ultimately exploiting the planned labor force that will be moved into these camps.

Rations are set at the same scale as Polish soldiers. However there is some initial problems feeding and housing all these people, especially the POWs are they are first acquired. Exposure, malnutrition, and diseases kill over 100,000 Soviet POWs before the situation is put into order.

The one exception are Soviet party officials, particularly political officers. These individuals are immediately separated from other Soviet POWs, and they along with Jewish political activists (especially communists but also including rabbis as well) are taken away to special camps were they are put to destructive labor building them and then the survivors are shot. In all over 150,000 people meet this fate in 3 months.

Heydrich and his underlings continue working on a more expansive plan to go into effect within 2 years.
 

galveston bay

Mackus said:
How Germany would bully Poland into handing over their soldiers into German labour brigades?
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The Poles did not exactly resist any anti Jewish measures taken by the Nazis in OTL to speak of. In fact, the Polish Underground only grudgingly provided any weapons to the Warsaw Ghetto and even the Jewish partisan groups were very much separate and very expendable entities. There also were not that many Jewish soldiers conscripted either. There would most definitely be protests and even some measures taken to stop it by some Polish officers. But that is an excellent way to end up in prison, and after a few examples are made any resistance would be covert.

Keep in mind that the prewar Polish state had an authoritarian government, basically a dictatorship, and Jews did face serious discrimination in Poland. Thus from the Polish point of view in this time line any Jewish soldiers are politically suspect and putting them into labor brigades instead of combat formations is not unreasonable.

This has real life precedent. The Soviet Army during the Cold War usually put its least politically reliable conscripts (including Jews whose parents wanted to immigrate to Israel, most Central Asians) into construction labor brigades. It isn't a death sentence, it is merely all the drudgery of military service without any particularly useful training in combat.

The Jews in Poland were considered an alien presence by the Poles during the interwar years. Removing them elsewhere is not likely to be unacceptable. This isn't the same as extermination in OTL. Even in OTL though the road to the Gas Chamber was a gradual thing. One somewhat ethnically questionable step at a time until suddenly mass murder seemed perfectly reasonable.

The Balts and Ukrainians by the way actually provided volunteers in large numbers to SS units guarding and slaughtering Jews all over the Soviet Union. I suspect the reason the Poles didn't in our timeline is because Hitler thought they were just as racially inferior and he took very nasty steps to the Poles at the same time he was taken even nastier measures against the Jews.

The only Jews being outright murdered are rabbis and political activists, and even that is being done in secret. At least at present
 

galveston bay

Slavery and Ethnic Cleansing in the Soviet Union

While the Germans are beginning to use forced labor on a massive scale, the Soviets have been doing so for almost a generation.

Like the Nazis, the Soviets have their own groups they consider politically reliable.. The largest of these are the 500,000 Volga Germans, who over the course of the winter of 1939-40 are relocated by force to Kazakhstan. Nearly 20% of these people die either along the way or when they get there. (note: this is merely a couple of years early and Stalin moved millions of people during the war)

Ethnic Poles are also rounded up and exiled, although this number is only a few thousand. The exemption are the Polish Communists in exile, who form an exile government in Moscow. (in OTL the Lublin government). Balts who live in the Soviet Union simply deported, although useful ones are made use of in the NKVD.
 

Brosip Broz Tito

Banned
Considering that Goring is in essence a more 'pragmatic Hitler' wouldn't he take a different measure to Soviet POWs?

I'm thinking forming a collaborationist army, which the Germans did OTL but not until things really went to crap. So maybe Goring is smart enough to put the potential recruits to work early, not necessarily on the front but as reservists or anti-partisans or something.

Also, what is Yugoslavia doing? They were almost Axis IOTL, so they easily could be ITTL.

Also, I get with the Poles going also with the German's against the Jews, but wouldn't some of the Baltic states not go along with it?
 

galveston bay

Brosip Broz Tito said:
Considering that Goring is in essence a more 'pragmatic Hitler' wouldn't he take a different measure to Soviet POWs?

I'm thinking forming a collaborationist army, which the Germans did OTL but not until things really went to crap. So maybe Goring is smart enough to put the potential recruits to work early, not necessarily on the front but as reservists or anti-partisans or something.

Also, what is Yugoslavia doing? They were almost Axis IOTL, so they easily could be ITTL.

Also, I get with the Poles going also with the German's against the Jews, but wouldn't some of the Baltic states not go along with it?
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the Ukrainian Liberation Army is coming soon, the Russian Nationalists are a bit later. Although HIWIs will show up pretty quickly.

At this point the Yugoslavs and Bulgarians are non belligerent German client states.

A uncomfortably large number of Balts were willing participants in atrocities against the Jews.

as to the POWs, death rates in the first year of Barbarossa were catastrophic (I have seen 90%), so 10% is a radical departure from that. They were fed, on the occasions when they were fed, starvation or worse rations, and left without shelter in the Fall and Winter. They died in horrific numbers. That too was part of Hitlers genocide against Eastern European people

The Commissar Order was cheerfully embraced by the Wehrmacht according to most sources (the book "Hitlers Willing Executioners" is especially a good source)
 
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galveston bay

The Phony War

November 1939 – March 1940 The Phony War
Combat is limited to skirmishing and patrol actions all across the front as both sides have needed reforms and preparations to make before resuming operations. American and British reporters begin calling this the “Phony War”.

The Soviets have much to do. Stalin orders a full scale reform of the army, including reinstitution of the traditional privileges and authority for officers, and a dramatic decrease in the authority of political officers and the NKVD in operational matters and discipline. Command and control is simplified by reducing the size of Soviet infantry divisions, while efforts are made with new production to increase the firepower of each division. Heavy artillery is centralized, while trucks arrive from the United States and production in airframes and tanks markedly increases. Lessons are studied from the Fall campaign in Poland and Siberia to determine how to better fight beginning in the spring.

The Germans meanwhile replace as many Panzer I and II tanks as possible, with many of the Panzer Iis converted into flamethrower tanks. All light divisions are converted into panzer or panzer grenadier divisions.

In November and December 1939, the British occupy Persia and place the Shah (Reza) under house arrest. The British government announces that this is for his own protection and to ensure that the Soviets do not act aggressively toward vital British interests (the oilfields). It is actually of course to keep the Soviets out and to eliminate German influence, which has been growing in Persia.

At sea the Soviets suffer heavy losses attempting to use their submarines in the Baltic as the Germans heavily defend ore shipments from Sweden. However, several Swedish ships are attacked, and in the most embarrassing incident, the Swedish coast defense ship Gotland is barely missed by a spread of torpedoes. The Swedes protest, and the submarine commander would have been in serious trouble had he successfully made it back to port. Heavy use of mines by both sides and winter ice eventually shut the Soviets back into port at Kronstadt. The Soviets do get a measure of revenge however as a large air raid on the night of December 12 severely damages the port facilities at Riga and kills several hundred civilians. Attempts to repeat this success however fail as it turns out that the initial heavy raid hit the target more to dumb luck than accuracy. It does however prod the Germans into focusing more effort into developing an effective night fighter.

In the Black Sea, Soviet convoys are generally unmolested.

The Germans send copies of their Freya radar system to the Japanese in repayment for the valuable torpedo technology provided by the Japanese. German technical advisors also arrive in Japan to assist in using this technology, as well as assistance with Japanese armored vehicle development and production.
 

sloreck

I wonder how much good Freya radar and improved armor designs will do the Japanese. I can't see the Japanese manufacturing too many Freya units, they'd be useful for home islands and Okinawa defense, can't see them as maintainable on any of the Pacific islands they have right now. As far as improved armor designs, how many could they manufacture? Could they make enough Panzer III equivalents to match Soviet armor in the far east? Given the limited capacity of the Japanese steel industry in 1940, making any significant number of tanks will end up meaning fewer ships (whether merchant or warships) which are way more useful to them.

I can't see the US (and UK/Dutch) selling the Japanese the oil, scrap steel, and other materials they need/want. Before the PoD here, sales had already been cut way back, and if the UK, France, US, and Dutch are busy trying to rearm in the face of the various threats, they won't have as much left over and also will not want to arm another potential enemy. especially the USA, who might sell some stuff to both Germany and USSR, but has "issues" with Japan.
 

Gudestein

Alright, this is good and a lot different than most threads.

I agree with the criticism earlier that the Poles and Rumanians might have suffered more heavily early on. Off course the Germans were not yet there on the eastern front when the Soviets were at their most effective.

For what is in store I have three subjects to ask about. The Soviets started major reorganization in 1940 after the winter war that were then under way in 1941 ending in an effective fighting doctrine in the winter of 1942 (rudely not counting wins based on opponents frostbite in the winter of 1941).
Probably they will not get that far for the spring of 1940?

Regarding the spring offensives....This is tricky, a stronger and manned Stalin line. Obsessed Nuker will say the Germans will get mauled, but it is a very long line. And obviously, if the Germans get trough there is no more reserves in Siberia.
Has anyone seen threads for WI the Germans attacked the Maginot line?

Lastly, Germany lacks a useful border with Russia. How has the Germans, Poles, Rumanians etc. decided to split the spoils.
In the absence of any publicly agreed German access to land, it is very hard to see the German actions as anything but the defense of Europe from communism. They should be helped by the western allies.
A publicized German attack plan will only go so far. A plan is not a declaration of war, and it is good to have contingency plans. Without the German mass deployment in the east, which was not there yet, there is little to back it up. Also, the French and Soviet defense treaty really speaks against the Soviet claims. The French were obliged to come to Stalins help in case of a German attack. Stalin might have seen the French as useless, but the French probably wouldn't have.
 

zert

Well the rearming on both sides will take sometime. Getting the men trained on the new weapons will be helpful when the thaws begin.
 

Richter von Manthofen

A few nitpicks - the Soviet tank force in 1939 includes (numbers built, not sure how many operational in many cases, some sould to China etc)

60 T-35
600 T-28
7200 (estimate) BT tanks
12000 T-26 (those were built until 1941, so I assume there are less available - less than 1000 were exported)

the "prototype" KV-1 were hurried into service during Winter War in 1940 OTL

T-34 pre series (117 units) were built in 1940...

So they sould never show up in the quantities "lost" TTL.

In addition if the Stalin line is built and completed theresources must come from somewhere else.

Comparing Stalin Line and a hypotethical attack on the Maginot line is somewhat difficult

Stalin line was NOT a continous line of fortification but more like fortified districs - though it will offer a serious obstacle, but much much less than the Maginot linie would ahve. In addition I assume that the Luftwaffe has basically superiority when the line is finally reached (the russians will have lost most in the early days from the description)


German Panzer numbers (production)

Panzer I 1500 (of those only around 500 were assigned to case yellow OTL)
Panzer II 1000 built until 1939 - most assigned
Panzer III 170 until winter 1940 IIRC
Panzer IV 260 to 1939

38(t) - in September there wer 57! ready for combat...
35(t) - 112 in 9/39

IIRC the OP said production was increased.... I assume soviet superiority in number is close to 7-1 maybe 8-1 (or larger if including tankettes) Germany MUST gain air superiority soon...
 

galveston bay

The Japanese did have radar in World War II, although with some exceptions, it was 1943 and after. It was primarily limited to air defense type radars and the Japanese had very few airborne radar sets. The main problem is that the best route to promotion in the Navy and Army was not in the technical services. The Naval officers with ambitions of becoming an admiral went for torpedo, gunnery or aviation, while in the Army infantry and to a lesser extent cavalry and armor were the path. While this is pretty normal in other armies and navies, for the Japanese it was more so as it fit in the whole cult of the warrior mythos.

Resources thus were not allocated to the degree required for things like signals and radar. But the Japanese did have air defense radars at major installations and major warships in the 43-45. Of course by then they had pretty much lost the war by 1943 and were definitely doomed by late 1944.

This gives the Japanese a year or so head start in prototypes and development but don't expect to see the Japanese embrace radar like the Americans, British or Germans.

As to tank production, as I mentioned earlier, to increase tank production requires serious sacrifices elsewhere. What those will be will appear later on.

Letting the KV1 and T34 into the war early as part of the earlier buildup the Soviets did to match the earlier German build up. The Soviets threw everything they had into Bukrin, including a pair of experimental tank brigades with both vehicles. I feel having them arrive a few months early is not too bad a stretch.

The Stalin Line is indeed a series of fortified districts. The defenses generally are a few pill boxes and bunkers, with some field fortifications. They are nowhere near as extensive as either German or French fortified zones, and not even to the scale of OTL German defenses at El Alamain, or the Russian defenses at Kursk. They lack the deep belt of minefields and the significant numbers of permanent firing positions. But they do add some much needed stiffening for the Soviets.

Another issue not yet mentioned is the the winter of 1939-40 was one of the coldest in the 20th Century, to the degree that it impacted Allied efforts to dig in along the French border. The same applies further east in this timeline.

The Soviet main tank strength does indeed consist overwhelmingly of BT series and T26/28 series tanks. The Germans do have entirely too many PZIIs. Both armies are doing their best to remedy this and both are at a production level that in OTL they would not see until 1942.

The Germans are getting around this by converting their PZI and PZII into assault guns and flamethrower tanks (which will be handy when assaulting the expected dug in Soviets), and are already putting a bigger gun on the PZIII (50 mm gun instead of 37 mm). The PZIV is still using the 75 mm short gun.

The Skoda works are cranking T38s as fast as possible
 

galveston bay

Interim: Winter 1939-40

Alarmed by the prospect of either Nazi Germany or the Communist Soviet Union winning a total victory in their war and thus dominating Europe, the British Government attempts to mediate a cease fire and return to status quo ante bellum

Negotiating through ambassadors in Moscow and Berlin, the British find that neither side is particularly interested in peace except massively in their favor.

Stalin, through Molotov, is demanding that the Baltic States, eastern Poland and Bessarabia be demilitarized, and that the Finns accept a demilitarized zone that would include Vyborg. They also flatly reject German proposals.

Goring, through Von Neurath, also has high demands. The Germans and their allies want massive reparations, to the tune of $25 Billion Gold Marks, as well as withdrawal of Soviet military forces except border guards from the Ukraine west of the Dneiper, from all of Belorussia, and from Karelia. Von Neurath also flatly rejects the Soviet demands.

On this impasse the opportunity for a diplomatic solution falters over the winter.

In Japan, foreign observers note that the Army has suffered some embarrassment in the last year. A painfully costly victory at Wuhan followed by heavy casualties and stalemate has resulted in China, while the border skirmishes with the Soviets have resulted in a serious defeat for the Kwantung Army. Field Marshal Hata takes over as Army Minister and he replaces Itagaki, who is relegated to the minor post of commander in Korea, and also sacks Tojo, who he blames for Army aviation failures. Tojo is sent to Formosa.

The Navy sees the loss of Navy Minister Yoshida from what is officially described as a car accident, while Shimada Shigetaro takes over as Navy Minister and Vice Admiral Koshiro is denied promotion to full admiral and is instead appointed ambassador to the United States.. Hata and Shigetario than maneuver successfully to place their suitable candidate in the prime minister's chair, aided when Admiral Yonai is assassinated by an Army major, and the way is cleared for the advancement of Koiso Kuniaki to the position of Prime Minister.

A proposed Tripartite Pact between Japan, Germany and Italy is shelved for the moment but Germany and Japan continue to act as allies unofficially

A serious proposal is made to Nationalist China about a cease fire, but goes nowhere as Chinese memories of the Rape of Nanking and a host of other atrocities prevents any opportunity for discussion.
 

galveston bay

Japan revises its plans

A new government is in power in Japan as of December 1939, and a reassessment of Japanese strategy is quickly completed.

With the failure of cease fire talks with Nationalist China, Tokyo orders the institution of a new strategy in China. The provinces of Hubei, Anhui, and Zheijang will be abandoned, along with the cities of Wuhan, Nunjung and Nanjing. The primary defense line will be along the Yellow River, with a coastal strip including the provinces of Shandong and Wangsu and the vital city of Shanghai as well as continued control of Canton, Shanto, Xiamen, Fuzhou, and Xiapo. This will continue to isolate China from direct overseas trade and assistance.

The territory that will be abandoned is to be ruthlessly and comprehensively stripped of useful material and food, and the what is not taken is to be destroyed. The population is to be left starving and in flight as to be a burden on the Nationalists when they take back control after Japanese withdrawal.

Even the railroad tracks are to be taken up as the Army withdraws and the steel sent to Japan and Manchuria for productive use.

This is expected to free up 300,000 men along with 9 infantry divisions, 4 tank regiments, 4 independent engineer brigades, and 2 artillery groups, a total of 3 field armies, which will be free for deployment elsewhere. The other 18 infantry divisions dealing with the Chinese will see drafts of 2,000 men each taken from them, and those men will be replaced by older reservists and an early call up of the class of 1941 to man divisions in less vital areas like Korea and Formosa to free up men from those divisions to be sent to China.

These 36,000 men will form with along with the class of 1940 a total of 12 mechanized divisions, which will consist of an armored brigade (4 battalion sized tank regiments, 1 battalion sized armored car regiment), 2 motorized infantry brigades, plus the usual supporting units all of which will be fully motorized.

A new vehicle, the Type Zero Ho-Ru self propelled gun, which is a Type 95 Ha-Go tank chassis mated with Type 88 (75 mm) anti aircraft gun. This vehicle is open topped, but has the firepower to deal with the Soviet tanks (BT series, T26s, T28s) fought in Siberia, where it was discovered Japanese tanks armed with the short barrel 37mm and 57mm guns had a serious range disadvantage.

The new 47 mm anti tank gun is to be rushed into production as soon as possible, and it will equip the Type 97 ShinHoTo which is being rushed into production with German technical assistance.

(authors note: both of these vehicles are within Japanese capability. The ShinHoTo is coming in two years early and the Ho-Ru was developed in 1945 as the Japanese version of the Hetzer (although it had either a 47 mm or 100 mm gun). This is basically the Japanese version of the Marder. The Japanese didn't explore these options as they lacked the resources. Resources are being made available. 1940-42 were the peak years of Japanese Tank production, which fell dramatically as the war went on due to stresses internal and external pressures)

The Navy is forced to make some sacrifices to pay for this. Although work will continue on the Yamato and Mushashi, the Shinano and 2 successor ships are cancelled, freeing up massive amounts of steel and vast sums of money. The Navy however will however be able to build the 4 planned Agano class cruisers sooner, as well 2 Oyodo class cruisers. The Shokaku and Zuikaku will be completed, and plans for purchase of the liner Izumo Maru for conversion to a medium sized carrier as well as the Kashiwara Maru for a similar conversion (both ships to be purchased in 1940)

(authors note: all of these ships were indeed built, started or converted during the war, but were delayed in part due to the massive requirements in steel for the Shinano, Yamato and Mushashi).

 
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