"Goring's Reich" An Alternate World War II

[galveston bay]

Allied strategic decisions Fall 1942

The Arcadia Conference November 7 – 15, 1942 (Quebec)
Churchill and Roosevelt, along with their staffs, meet in Quebec to discuss military and political strategy. The bombing of Seattle is placing tremendous pressure domestically on Roosevelt to focus American power on Japan first, while the Invasion of India and the Second Indian Campaign, as well as the Australians are forcing Churchill into the same situation. Also attending are Prime Minister Curtin of Australia, Prime Minister King of Canada, Prime Minister Smuts of South Africa, and the Soviet Deputy Minister Gromyko, who is there in secret.

Roosevelt finds that he is forced to agree that urgent reinforcements are needed for India and the only place they can be drawn from is from the British 1st Army in North Africa as Wavell needs every man he has in the Middle East and Persia in case the Turks join the war on the German side, and domestically sending American troops to help the British defend their Empire in India is simply not possible.

However, Churchill finds that in order to accomplish this he will have to make huge concessions in India. In spite of an outburst where Churchill declares “He did not become the Crown's first minister to dissolve the British Empire!” eventually he is forced to face the situation as it is and agree to do exactly that in India. The Commonwealth and American politicians agree to send Clement Attlee to India to begin the needed ground work to create one or more independent states there as the new Viceroy, and agree with the military chiefs that Auchenleck has to go and that Alexander is the man to send.

While no one is happy about this compromise, all are forced to focus on the fact that controlling the sea lanes to Persia is absolutely vital in order to support the Soviet Union, which is making promises about entering the war in a years time against Japan, and sooner if attacked by Germany. The Soviets also note that the best way to keep Turkey out of the war is to avoid defeat in Persia and western India. The Americans also pledge additional Lend Lease Aid to India, and the Soviets agree to a cut in their aid because of the constraints of shipping as long as this aid is made up for later.


In terms of military strategy, the Allies agree that defeating Japan and instituting a blockade that leaves it isolated to the Home Islands is the primary military goal, as an invasion would siphon off troops needed for Europe, and that this goal of knocking Japan effectively out of the war is the first priority. Available forces will continue to battle the Germans and European Axis where they can be reached, and beginning in 1944 a Combined Bomber Offensive will begin when US Army Air Force bombers forces are large enough to spare bombers for Europe. In the meantime the British will begin their offensive in the Spring of 1943 after the RAF Bomber Command is reequipped and retrained. The Allies agree that an invasion of Norway will be planned for the Spring of 1944 so as to knock Sweden and Finland out of the war and allow for Lend Lease Convoys to reach the Soviet Union without the long haul across the Atlantic and Indian Oceans.



Finally, the Allied leaders agree to the establishment of the United Nations, with a formal session to be held in San Francisco as early as the summer of 1944.

 

[CrimsonKing]

Wow, you're really doing a good job of keeping me in suspense here! That said, I'll go out on a limb and make the following prediction: the Anglo-American shift to Japan will produce results and the Japanese are in for some heavy defeats. However, I don't see these coming attacks on the European Axis as succeeding. With the reprioritization by the Allies to the Pacific and the stronger German economy than OTL, I think they'll be beaten back with heavy losses, although those to the Germans will also not be inconsequential.

 

[galveston bay]

Victory Through Airpower

Allied Air Power Fall 1942


The Royal Air Force, and its associates, the Royal Canadian, Royal Australian, Royal New Zealand, and Royal South African Air Forces, have expanded greatly since the beginning of the war and markedly improved in quality as well. The Empire Training Program is churning out high quality well trained aircrew in huge numbers as well, and indeed the RAF and its partners are beginning to outnumber the Luftwaffe and Japanese Air Forces combined.


The RAF has the Spitfire IX, a match for the FW190, the Spitfire VIII and V, which are match for the Me109G and Zero, the Seafire (typically MkV versions), the Hurricane which is now primarily a fighter bomber, and the new Typhoon, which is an excellent fighter bomber. Also in service are large numbers of American P40E Kittyhawks and small number of P39s which are now used only for ground attack. New in service is the P51A Mustang, already equipping 11 squadrons and getting enthusiastic reviews. Also in service are the Beaufighter which is an excellent strikefighter and nightfighter, as well as the Mosquito which is used for the same missions. In all the RAF and its partners have nearly 6,000 fighters in service.


For bombers the RAF has the Halifax, Stirling, Whitley, and Hampden, all of which are assigned to Coastal Command as maritime patrol aircraft (over 1,600 total) as well as the American Liberator (nearly 1,000 in service) which are used primarily the North Atlantic and Caribbean and Indian Ocean. The new Lancaster, of which 500 are now in service, as well as 1800 Wellingtons now make up Bomber Command, which is training for the planned strategic bombing offensive set to begin in early 1943. Also assigned to Bomber Command are 100 Mosquito bombers which are used for recon and pathfinder missions. Coastal Command also has 600 Blenheims and Beauforts for maritime strike missions, while 600 Blenheims, 100 Martin Marylands, and 600 Martin Baltimores are assigned to tactical air forces as well as 200 Douglas Boston (A20) light bombers. The Fleet has 400 Seafire and a similar number of Swordfish torpedo bombers, as well as 300 Martlets (Wildcats) and is getting more of the Martlets as well as the new American Avenger torpedo bomber.

The Douglas DC3 (C47) Dakota is available in large numbers as are various other transport and liaison aircraft.

The Americans are now producing huge numbers of aircraft, with over 63,000 aircraft built since the beginning of 1941, and nearly 85,000 aircraft are expected next year. Nearly 23,000 of these aircraft have been exported to the Allies, with trainers such at the T6 Texan (Harvard) being sent to the RCAF in huge numbers (for the Empire Training Program), but large numbers of P39s, P40s, A20s, Hudsons, Marylands, Baltimores, Liberators and Catalinas have also been exported as well as a large number of Dakota transports.

The Army Air Force and Navy each have gained 500 Liberators, which the Navy is using for maritime patrol along with the Lockheed Hudson (200) and Catalina (600). The Army has 500 Liberators, of which 100 are being used as transports, and the remaining are assigned to Bomb Wings which will soon be joining the 11th Air Force in Alaska and the 7th Air Force in Hawaii. The B17E is the primary model of the Flying Fortress in service. Nearly 300 B17E are assigned to bomb wings for the 10th Air Force in Australia. More are coming as 300 B17Fs are in bomb wings training prior to deployment and more are forming all the time. The expansion of B17 and B24 production companies like Ford, Douglas and Vega as well as quick repairs to the Seattle Boeing Plant have offset the loss of part of that plant during the Japanese attack on Seattle. However, the B29, which was expected to be making its first flight already has been seriously delayed, with at least six months or more of delays likely as severe damage was done to the plans and blueprint office and all of that has to be reconstructed. The B32, B35 and B36 are already in the design stage but none of them are likely to be ready for flight tests for at least a year or more.


The American fighter force is also drastically larger. The P39 has been pulled from front line service, and many of the survivors are handed over to the Latin Americans for use as a fighter bomber. An improved version, the P63 is nearly ready for flight test. The primary strength of the USAAF fighter component is the P40, which equips 15 fighter groups (1100 aircraft) but the new P47 and P51A are entering service with 3 P47C fighter groups already in North Africa, while another fighter group is training with the P51A and will be deployed to Europe soon. A new plant is nearly completed that will produce the P47D as thousands are requested. In addition 5 fighter groups have been equipped with the P38F, and their long range and the fact that they have two engines means that the 11th Air Force in Alaska gets them first.


The 5th and 13th Air Forces in the South Pacific, as well as the Marines have been pushing for longer range fighters, and the Army takes the unprecedented step of deciding to operate the F4U Corsair. New Zealand wants them as well, and so do the Australians. As it would simplify logistics if all of the fighters in the South Pacific flew the same type, Eisenhower and his deputies, as well as the Australian and New Zealand governments and the Marine Corps push for priority and the Pentagon (which has just been completed) agrees. Chance Vought, Goodyear and Brewster will all build the aircraft and plans are to have both American Air Forces pus the Marines, RAAF and RNAF to completely switch over to the Corsair by the end of 1943 with the Marines and New Zealanders at Guadalcanal, and the Marines in the Gilbert Islands receiving them first. Already the first squadron of Marine Corps Corsairs has reached Pearl Harbor for deployment soon to Tarawa.

The Navy meanwhile has decided on the F6F Hellcat, which is nearly ready for production and all of the fleet and light carriers will operate this fighter, while the older Wildcats (which are still in production) will be assigned to the escort carriers, as the Wildcat can get by with a shorter deck.


Meanwhile, the P59 Aircomet jet fighter has its first flight test on October 1, 1942. The aircraft will turn out to be less than successful. Other Allied jets being developed are the Gloster Meteor, nearly ready for flight testing, and the DeHavilland Vampire, in final design stages. Jet fighters are at least two years away from combat deployment, perhaps longer.


For now the Americans are using reverse Lend Lease Beaufighters for night fighters, but only a handful of squadrons are deployed, but the development of the P61 Black Widow is still underway, with deployment expected in 1944.


For light and medium bombers, the Americans are now deploying large numbers of excellent aircraft. The Fleet has replaced the surviving TBDs with the TBF Avenger, while the Dauntless continues to render excellent service. The Army has dropped the A24 but 3 groups of A36 Apache dive bombers are planned as ground support aircraft for Europe, while the A20 is available in large numbers, with 4 groups in North Africa and 2 with the 5th Air Force in Australia as well as large numbers in foreign service. The B25 has 2 groups in North Africa, with more forming, while the B26 also has 2 groups in North Africa. The B26 however will be concentrated in Europe, where the fields are better, but the B25 is heavily requested by the 5th, 7th, 11th and 13th Air Forces, and field modifications have converted the B25 into a ferocious ground strafer. A total of 8 groups are already in the Pacific, with more en route, and the RNAF and RAF want them to replace their obsolete Blenheims and Beauforts. Thousands of A20s, B25s and B26s are planned for 1943.

The C47 Skytrain is in wide production, with the Army Air Force and Navy both wanting large numbers to expand the already large numbers in use. Heavier longer range aircraft, like the C54 and a variety of flying boats are in service for long range transportation from the United States to Britain, Hawaii and Australia, while the heavy duty C46 is in production and a few squadrons are already in Alaska and Canada. The new Lockheed Constellation is nearly ready for production, which is a very long range transport aircraft and has a high cruising speed.

Overall, the Luftwaffe and the Japanese Army and Naval Air Forces are about to face a reckoning in numbers and in some cases better aircraft. The air war is about to change.

 

[galveston bay]

authors note: the only changes here from OTL is the Corsair being picked by the Army for the South Pacific and this particular divergence is partly because yours truly thinks the Corsair is the best fighter plane of World War II and I include the Mustang in that. Opinions vary of course. Logistically though it makes sense as does the fact that it has a longer range than anything except the Lightning, which is still having compressibility problems in 1942 so seems more a long range interceptor and fighter bomber than air superiority fighter (and is needed in Alaska, where you really want to have two engines... ditching in Arctic waters is invariably fatal)

The numbers are correct to OTL. The other divergence is the delay of the B29, which is due to events in the timeline, and the delay in the heavy bomber force, which is due to events in timeline as well. I am also giving the 4th Fighter Wing the P51A instead of Spitfires (which is what was used historically) as the demand for Spitfires is high in India and Britain still and they can't be spared for American fighter units heading to North Africa.

 

[Random Walk]

And so the end of the Third Reich begins.

 

[Penny for The Guy]

Meanwhile, Back at Rick's

And so the end of the Third Reich begins.

Major Heinrich Strasser: You repeat Third Reich as though you expected there to be others!

Captain Renault: Well, personally, Major, I will take what comes.



A Most excellent TL!!

 

[galveston bay]

India November - December 1942

The Panic in India November 21 – December 20, 1942
Auchenleck is forced to order his remaining troops in east India to retreat, with orders to fall back to Benares with General Slim to take command of the provisional 14th Army consisting of his corps and the remnants of Lloyd's corps. He orders Christison to take 2 divisions from Ceylon and form the 12th Army and leave one division in Ceylon plus the Ceylon Defense force (division size) and another division in Madras and the rest to hold the Godavari Line including the port of Cocanda, while Slim is to hold Benares, and the newly arrived African divisions will be formed into a provisional corps to hold Nagpur and block the route to Bombay.


As the Indian Army retreat, so do tens of thousands of British civilian servants, businessmen, and their families, as well as hundreds of thousands of Indians for a variety of reasons but mostly because they are the worried about what the Japanese and Azad Hind will do to them. Huge numbers die in the panicky flight, as Japanese bombers and fighters attack trains and motor vehicles whenever they can as well as large columns of people. The death toll is never adequately determined, but estimated as high as 25%. Meanwhile the Japanese secure Bihar province including the important city of Patna, Orissa province and Raipur and Bilaspur in the Central Provinces. A few battalions also seize Bhutan, which has no significant defense, and Darjiling, similarly naked but the mountains and roads that are little more than tracks prevent much more than a probing a few miles into Nepal.

General Alexander arrives on December 12, and the first battalions of British reinforcements from Morocco arrive aboard the Queen Mary on December 15.

The Japanese halt at this point, having reached the limit of their logistics and hoping for a political solution.

 

[galveston bay]

The Truce December 1942-January 1943

Diplomacy Fall 1942
The Nordic famine relief effort
The United States and Britain are not at war with Sweden, and indeed still have embassies in Stockholm. By the Fall of 1942 it is clear from reports that serious food shortages and indeed a famine is threatening Norway, with Sweden and Finland also looking a serious shortfalls. The Germans are not facing such problems but serious food shortages in Italy and the need to feed millions of German and associated powers soldiers, as well as millions of prisoners, is more than what they can draw from Denmark, France and the Ukraine, and there is not enough to send to help out their northern partners. Seeing an opportunity to gain influence in Sweden, the US government persuades the British to allow Swedish merchant ships to cross the Atlantic and bring back food from North America. The price is kept at the normal world market price for commodities such as wheat, potatoes and beef, but it creates substantial good will in Finland and Sweden and considerable relief to the Norwegians. Although there are complaints that this is hurting the blockade against the Axis, the criticism for the most part it remains out of the newspapers and indeed a lot of Allied thinkers do not believe that the blockade is hurting the Germans at all as they are able to loot at will any food they need from France and elsewhere.

A secret private meeting with Count Bernodette and Roosevelt occurs in December 1942 will have important results later on.

Axis peace proposal
Meanwhile, Goring and Prime Minister Hata in Japan are looking for a way to end the war. Both feel that they have achieved as much or more than can be expected, and it is time to persuade the Anglo-Americans to come to terms. Using the Swedes, who seem on decent terms with the Americans, the joint Axis powers propose the following peace treaty.

A one month cease fire and prisoner exchange to begin within 72 hours of Allied agreement regardless of acceptance of the other terms. Internees in Allied countries who are imprisoned or considered undesirable can be substituted as prisoners for this purpose.

All territory currently held by the Axis powers will remain under their control with the following exceptions:
All Japanese forces will withdraw from Australian territory, including the Bismarks and New Guinea
All Japanese forces will withdraw from US territory except for the Philippines and Guam
Guam will be ceded to Japan
The Philippines, Indonesia, Malaya, the former British Borneo, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Burma and Timor will be granted independence and remain part of the Greater Asian Co- Prosperity Sphere
All Japanese and British troops and civilian officials will withdraw from India and Ceylon
Resumption of normal trade between Japan and the Anglo-American nations

Germany will annex the Netherlands, Belgium, Alsace -Lorraine and Luxembourg, but Norway and Denmark will regain autonomy as part of the Reich. The Reich will continue to maintain bases in both nations

German forces will gradually be reduced in France over a 10 year period, with France regaining I ts independence but subject to sharp limitations in is military forces (OOC: at the Vichy levels in OTL) and Germany and Italy retaining bases at Brest, St Nazaire, and Toulon

Italy will keep Tunisia, and the British will return Tripolitania (Libya from Sirte west). Axis forces will evacuate Algeria. France is granted Spanish Morocco, and the British granted remaining Spanish territories outside of Europe with the exception of Melilla and Cueta and the Canary Islands.
Axis civilian aircraft such as airliners will be granted landing and refueling rights in the Azores

Germany is willing to discuss a reduction of naval vessels to be matched by similar Allied reductions

The European Axis powers will be granted trade with the Anglo-Americans and Latin Americans

Roosevelt and Churchill are both forced to seriously consider the issue, and agree to the first element, the prisoner exchange on December 21, 1942. Both men are well aware of the horrors Allied civilian internees and POWs are suffering at the hands of the Japanese, and while the British government is unhappy about sending back thousands of elite German aircrew, there are a large number of British aircrew in German hands. None of the Allies, especially the French, are happy about the likelihood of Axis freely resupplying their forces in Tunisia and Algeria, but nearly 1.5 million French troops remain as POWs in German hands, and while they will not be able to join the Free French forces in any significant numbers, they will be able to go home. Some perhaps will even join the resistance.

The Allies are unaware as of yet the Laval has signed an agreement with the Germans to simply arrest up to 250,000 of these French POWs once the truce ends, but provide up to 500,000 laborers for Reich war industry. That information does not reach the West until after the truce ends.

The Allies tell the Axis they will consider the matter for the duration of the Truce and provide their answer within 96 hours of the end of it on January 24, 1943.

For now however, the guns go silent....

The numbers
Allied POWs in Japanese hands - 75,000 American and Filipino, 85,000 British and British Commonwealth, 25,000 Dutch, 125,000 Indian
Allied civilians in Japanese hands – 130,000
Japanese POWs- 500 (approximately) (nearly all choose to remain 'dead')
Japanese civilians in Allied hands (includes a number the US government considers suspect) – 45,000 (another 200,000 Japanese Americans are allowed to stay by their request)
Indians interned by the British government – 10,000 (includes Gandhi and Nehru)


Italian POWs – 600,000
German POWs – 10,000
German and Italian internees in Allied hands – 50,000 (including those interned in Latin America)
Anglo-American and British Commonwealth POWs in Axis hands- 50,000
Entire population of the Channel Island and other British and American civilians (included Jews from both groups) in Axis hands – 150,000
French POWs released – 1.6 million (sent home by rail and in some cases marching was involved)
The Germans also expel nearly 100,000 Jews from the Low Countries and France during this period, all of whom are sent by ship to the British Isles. They arrive only with the clothes on their backs.

A young woman named Anne Frank will become a bestselling author postwar when she publishes a book drawn from her diary entries during this period.

The Great Exchange
The huge numbers of people being transferred result in the two sides agreeing to extend the Truce until January 31, 1943

The Japanese send most of their prisoners by ship, using Swedish and neutral shipping as much as possible to Madras (India) or for those recently captured in India, by rail to the front lines and then marched across it to British control. The Indians that the British government finds undesirable are sent by truck to the front lines and in some cases, literally dragged to the Japanese positions and dumped (Gandhi, Nehru and some others)

The recently captured in India and Alaska are in reasonable health, and indeed the prisoners captured in the Aleutians (nearly all of whom are in Hokkaido) are sent by ship to Kodiak Island, where they are exchanged for Japanese internees shipped by American ships from Hawaii, California and Oregon.

The civilian internees captured early in the war are in poor health, but not particularly shockingly so at this point. The American and Commonwealth POWs are in poor to awful health, and indeed to reduce the expected Allied outcry, they are among the last to leave Japanese control after two weeks of feeding them up some. These POWs are all shipped to Darwin, where they are sent south by truck to be exchanged for the few Japanese internees in Australian control at an exchange point at Renner Waters. Along with them are all Australian civilians and POWs captured with the invasion of Darwin the previous year, many of whom also are in poor health. The Allies are angered to discover that nearly 20% of those known to have been captured as POWs died in Japanese custody, and nearly all of the rest captured in the Philippines, Malaya and the Dutch East Indies are ill to the point where they will be disabled for a year or more. Newsreels are made, and interviews taken, and plans are made to release both to the Allied public once the truce ends and the last prisoners are returned.

The Japanese government blithely informs the British Indian government that only a few hundred Indians (all officers and senior NCOs, plus nearly all the Gurkhas captured who still live) have chosen to return to British rule and the rest of the captured Indians have voluntarily joined the Azad Hind. British Intelligence estimates that in the case of about 20%, this is actually true.

In Europe, things are not as hideous. The Italians and Germans are in excellent health and the Germans are simply taken to Jersey aboard the same ships that are picking up Allied civilians from the Channel Islands and Port of Le Havre. The Allies are angered that the Dutch, Norwegians, Belgians, and Portuguese are not included in this exchange, aside from those who were in British service at the time of their capture. American and British Commonwealth POWs by rail to Istanbul, Turkey, while Italian prisoners, nearly all of whom were captured in North Africa and East Africa a year or more ago, are sent by ship to Syracuse or by ship to Istanbul.

The Japanese had planned to evacuate their remaining garrison on Guadalcanal, but the US 1st Marine Division and New Zealand 2nd Division under the command of Vandegrift and Freyburg, overseen by General Patch, wiped out the last defenders on December 19. This battle cost the Japanese 25,000 troops, mostly naval special landing troops, and the Allies suffered 5,000 battle casualties (and three times that number became seriously ill). Both of these battered Allied divisions are sent to New Zealand to recover, to a heroes welcome, and are replaced by the US 31st Infantry Division, newly arrived from Panama Canal garrison duty. The Japanese also reinforce the Aleutian Islands, deciding it is a wonderful place to absorb American attention if the peace effort fails.

In Europe, the pullout of the British 1st Army from North Africa is completed and it arrives in Bombay, with final elements arriving just before the end of the truce. The Americans meanwhile take steps to improve their army in North Africa, including sacking a number of officers who have failed to measure up. Large numbers of Sherman tanks arrive as well to replace nearly all of the Grant tanks in service. Malta is fully supplied with stocks to last months, and worn out aircrew are replaced with fresh pilots and aircrew from Britain. The air force defending Malta is rebuilt and expanded as well.

This massive effort sharply reduces the number of convoys to Britain and Australia for nearly a month, but the poor Atlantic weather had reduced losses even before the Truce to a minimum and by sacrificing the American and Allied buildup in Britain, this mass sealift is accomplished.

The Germans meanwhile take advantage of the Truce to pull out their elite airborne forces in North Africa and replace them with the 6th Army, an infantry force of 3 corps (9 divisions). Supplies are also rushed across the Mediterranean to build up stock piles and new equipment is brought it to replace losses, as are replacements. A large number of German officers and NCOs are sent home from North Africa, particularly the sick (who are a large group) but also a number of particularly able officers and NCOs who deserve decorations and promotions and who have useful recent practice fighting the Anglo-Americans and Free French. The entire Luftwaffe contingent is rotated out and replaced by new aircrews and new aircraft, with only a few veterans remaining to impart information on local conditions and hazards. The Italians fail to take advantage of this opportunity as they simply do not have the troops to send other than replacements.

Postwar there is some criticism of the Truce, but for the people who returned from Japanese custody and their families, there has never been anything but praise. It is noted that nearly a third of the Italians sent home promptly deserted within days or weeks of their return to duty and while many Frenchmen were conscripted again into Axis service, many more got to return to their families and French agriculture markedly improved with the return of so many fit men. While the Germans continue to live off the French agricultural bounty, there was now enough that some of the worst of the food shortages for the French people were eliminated.

On January 27, the Allied government formally reject the Axis peace proposal and indeed demand that the Japanese surrender all conquests since 1935 and Germany and associated powers surrender all conquests since December 1940. Those terms are of course rejected by the Axis on February 1, 1943.

 

[Mackus]

So, war rages on. Curious that WAllies decided to continue war, rather than keep trying to negotiate better deal.
Did both sides started with harsh terms, while expecting to meet somewhere in the middle, or did they genuinely were unwilling to accept anything less than this?

 

[cortz#9]

So, war rages on. Curious that Wallies decided to continue war, rather than keep trying to negotiate better deal.
Did both sides started with harsh terms, while expecting to meet somewhere in the middle, or did they genuinely were unwilling to accept anything less than this?

I'm a bit curious about this as well. If the Allies were willing to do a ceasefire, I would think they would be more willing to negotiate a compromise rather than just make demands.
If they had rejected the ceasefire right off the bat and then made their demands, this would've made more sense to me,
You either play hardball or you don't.

This is not a critique just my two cents.

 

[vonbeyer]

I'm a bit curious about this as well. If the Allies were willing to do a ceasefire, I would think they would be more willing to negotiate a compromise rather than just make demands.
If they had rejected the ceasefire right off the bat and then made their demands, this would've made more sense to me,
You either play hardball or you don't.

This is not a critique just my two cents.

yeah, I think the Allies, who are pretty beaten back might have at least made a counter proposal? Frankly had Germany offered to de-occupy France with simple military limitations and open elections on part of the French Populace etc. the Allies would have at least had to heavily consider that. Of course that's guess work on my part as much as anyone's. The reality is (IMHO) that once defeated in a heavy military encounter it takes a nation decades to recover both militarily and economically. France couldn't be a threat to Germany for another 10-20 years. Probably my only beef with this timeline is the pending reemergence of Russia which couldn't be a player...again IMHO for another 10 years at best.

 

[Brosip Broz Tito]

I'm a bit curious about this as well. If the Allies were willing to do a ceasefire, I would think they would be more willing to negotiate a compromise rather than just make demands.
If they had rejected the ceasefire right off the bat and then made their demands, this would've made more sense to me,
You either play hardball or you don't.

This is not a critique just my two cents.

I think you make a good point. If the Wallies were willing to agree to a truce surely they would agree to serious negotiations and make a counter-proposal at least. Maybe they could work towards some middle ground, they probably won't reach it, but they can play diplomatic ping-pong for a while.

 

[cortz#9]

yeah, I think the Allies, who are pretty beaten back might have at least made a counter proposal? Frankly had Germany offered to de-occupy France with simple military limitations and open elections on part of the French Populace etc. the Allies would have at least had to heavily consider that. Of course that's guess work on my part as much as anyone's. The reality is (IMHO) that once defeated in a heavy military encounter it takes a nation decades to recover both militarily and economically. France couldn't be a threat to Germany for another 10-20 years. Probably my only beef with this timeline is the pending reemergence of Russia which couldn't be a player...again IMHO for another 10 years at best.

I think you make a good point. If the Wallies were willing to agree to a truce surely they would agree to serious negotiations and make a counter-proposal at least. Maybe they could work towards some middle ground, they probably won't reach it, but they can play diplomatic ping-pong for a while.

My thinking here is that in OTL the Allies demanded "Unconditional Surrender" but circumstances here are different so I would think there would be more room for negotiations but I haven't heard Galveston Bay's reasoning for the Allies stand here yet.
I'm sure he has his reasons.

 

[vonbeyer]

My thinking here is that in OTL the Allies demanded "Unconditional Surrender" but circumstances here are different so I would think there would be more room for negotiations but I haven't heard Galveston Bay's reasoning for the Allies stand here yet.
I'm sure he has his reasons.

I think the Americans are paying him off........ lol

 

[cortz#9]

I think the Americans are paying him off........ lol

Lol I hadn't thought of that. I wonder how much?

 

[traveller76]

Answers

I would think the Allies looked at the treatment of Prisoners of War and civilian populations in occupied countries and realized that human life is cheap for them. Not to say the Allies are angels but out and out liquidation/starvation is bad.
The Allies industrial machine is getting up to speed with better weapons and equipment being delivered to all Allied forces. The Axis have conquered a large amount of territory but will now need to garrison it, defend it and repair infrastructure. The allies realize that giving the Axis time to digest their conquests would be a bad policy overall. Unless the Axis are defeated there is a chance for another war with worse weapons.

As for my question:
Are Nehru and Gandhi going to be turned over to Japanese or Azad Hind? Will Bose try to help them?

 

[cortz#9]

I would think the Allies looked at the treatment of Prisoners of War and civilian populations in occupied countries and realized that human life is cheap for them. Not to say the Allies are angels but out and out liquidation/starvation is bad.
The Allies industrial machine is getting up to speed with better weapons and equipment being delivered to all Allied forces. The Axis have conquered a large amount of territory but will now need to garrison it, defend it and repair infrastructure. The allies realize that giving the Axis time to digest their conquests would be a bad policy overall. Unless the Axis are defeated there is a chance for another war with worse weapons.

As for my question:
Are Nehru and Gandhi going to be turned over to Japanese or Azad Hind? Will Bose try to help them?

Good points.

 

[galveston bay]

My thinking here is that in OTL the Allies demanded "Unconditional Surrender" but circumstances here are different so I would think there would be more room for negotiations but I haven't heard Galveston Bay's reasoning for the Allies stand here yet.
I'm sure he has his reasons.

authors notes coming later tonight, also some more on the diplomatic front... but I have given some hints

look at the Atlantic Charter closely, and the decision to give independence to India at the Arcadia Conference... there are hints there

 

[galveston bay]

yeah, I think the Allies, who are pretty beaten back might have at least made a counter proposal? Frankly had Germany offered to de-occupy France with simple military limitations and open elections on part of the French Populace etc. the Allies would have at least had to heavily consider that. Of course that's guess work on my part as much as anyone's. The reality is (IMHO) that once defeated in a heavy military encounter it takes a nation decades to recover both militarily and economically. France couldn't be a threat to Germany for another 10-20 years. Probably my only beef with this timeline is the pending reemergence of Russia which couldn't be a player...again IMHO for another 10 years at best.

look closely at Soviet actual OTL losses and production figures, they are what I am basing where the Soviets are in terms of capabilities at this point (Soviet OTL losses were worse by the way in casualties and economic damage was about the same)

 

[galveston bay]

The Truce part 2

Axis Raw material and Technology transfers during the Truce
The Germans take advantage of the situation and send several Milch Cow Uboats and Type XII Uboats to Japan along with several fast freighters, all of which reach Singapore before the Truce ends. In return the Japanese send a similar tonnage of fast shipping to Europe, all of which reach France before the truce ends.

The Japanese ships sent to Europe are loaded with rubber, tin, and quinine, as well as other raw materials that the Japanese have and the Germans do not , and which until now have been restricted to the weekly trains sent across Russia. Also sent are a number of Daihatsu landing craft, a complete B17C assembled from wrecks from Clark Field (authors note: The Japanese actually made several flyable aircraft in OTL from those wrecks), and a number of British code books that have been captured so far, as well a number of military officers and diplomats.

The Germans send several Maybugs (authors note: the manned version of the V1 finished testing in early December 1942), as well as several Me262 complete with engines (also available in OTL at this point). Although these engines require a lot of scarce strategic materials, the Japanese hope to build at least a few of them once they can replicate them, and until then will test them thoroughly. Also sent to Japan are a number of military officers and diplomats, as well several cryptographers and the machines they are using to read Soviet codes. The Germans finally send several thousand of the new Panzerfaust, which has seen considerable testing but has not been used against the Allies yet. The Japanese also receive a large amount of chromium

Allied strategic decisions
Although the German offer is seriously considered, the Japanese were never considered. For Japan the Americans, Australians, and British seek nothing less than the destruction of their empire and Japan being pinned up in the Home Islands to starve until they surrender. Nothing else will do after reports of Japanese chemical warfare attacks on China as well as the huge list of atrocities committed. The Bombing of Seattle, the occupation of Darwin, and the murder of civilians by indiscriminate attack on refugee columns during the fall of Burma and East India also demand nothing less than the destructon of the Japanese Empire.

For Germany after considerable soul searching, Roosevelt and Churchill both agree that it too must be smashed, its militarism stamped out, and the Nazis made to pay for their many crimes, the worst of which is in Serbia but include the slaughter of Allied civilians by submarine attack and bombing. The fact that Goring attacked the West while the two sides were at peace is the final reason for the decision, and Germany is viewed as too dangerous to be allowed to retain its de facto empire and grow even more powerful. Daladier is consulted, as it is his country that is under occupation and he bluntly tells Roosevelt that better a France that is permanently liberated later than a France that must endure the constant threat of German attack and an occupation that might end in a few years, if the Germans decide to live up to their word. He points at the Czechs and Munich and while Hitler may be dead, his spirit and his evil ideology live on in Goring.

For now nothing will be announced to the public or to the enemy, but the “Why We Fight” movies under development by the US Army and Hollywood begin to focus on this theme and the reason for it.

The lesser Axis powers will be treated as they deserve and as expedience demands. The Allies do have special plans for the Swedes and Finns, and hopes that they will become a linchpin in the road to victory. The big priority is to build up the Soviets, for they have the manpower needed to crush the Wehrmacht, and while it may be as long as two years before they are ready, ultimately they are the key to bleeding the Germans dry.