Goring succeeds Hitler after the fall of France

I don't see Goering being any more willing to avoid antagonizing the US then Hitler did. Like the rest of the German leadership, Goering believed that conflict with the US was inevitable from lend-lease on and it was just a matter of "when". He also shared much of the leaderships contempt for American war making capacity, as revealed by his remark to Rommel that claimed the American's made good refigerators, but not good combat aircraft. There's also the fact that Goering's position within the Reich is far less secure then Hitler's. He doesn't have the loyalty from the bulk of the military and Nazi Party apparatus that Hitler did. Him refraining from antagonizing the US and trying to abandon the, by this point, quite old relationship ("alliance" is rather too strong a word) with Japan is just going to further destabilize his already precarious support base.

This probably comes down to a Anglo-American vs German-Japanese war, with the Soviets watching gleefully from the sidelines. Japan is likely defeated as per OTL, but whether Germany is defeated depends on the political will of the Anglo-Americans hold up to prospect of paying the blood price necessary to defeat the German army which is something of an unknown.
 
I don't see Goering being any more willing to avoid antagonizing the US then Hitler did. Like the rest of the German leadership, Goering believed that conflict with the US was inevitable from lend-lease on and it was just a matter of "when". He also shared much of the leaderships contempt for American war making capacity, as revealed by his remark to Rommel that claimed the American's made good refigerators, but not good combat aircraft. There's also the fact that Goering's position within the Reich is far less secure then Hitler's. He doesn't have the loyalty from the bulk of the military and Nazi Party apparatus that Hitler did. Him refraining from antagonizing the US and trying to abandon the, by this point, quite old relationship ("alliance" is rather too strong a word) with Japan is just going to further destabilize his already precarious support base.

Quite old? Surely the fact that the Germans were also helping out the Chinese until quite late suggests that they were willing to play both sides if it suited them. It hardly seems like an essential relationship when you invest in the other guy's enemies as well as them.
 

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Probably not, but I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility. Indeed, it depends on what terms Goering is offering and on whether or not anyone in the British Cabinet is willing to aggressively challenge Churchill in regards to this.

What can Göring offer that won't weaken his position with the other senior Nazis?

Britain under Churchill was gearing up to being committed to a long war and the removal of the Nazis. There'd been nearly 70,000 casualties in the Battle of France and efforts were well underway to secure American aid for the conflict. Who would challenge Churchill for the premiership and tar themselves as an appeaser after appeasement had proved itself such a failure?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
What can Göring offer that won't weaken his position with the other senior Nazis?

1914 borders for Germany?

Britain under Churchill was gearing up to being committed to a long war and the removal of the Nazis. There'd been nearly 70,000 casualties in the Battle of France and efforts were well underway to secure American aid for the conflict. Who would challenge Churchill for the premiership and tar themselves as an appeaser after appeasement had proved itself such a failure?

Well, who was the main force in favor of appeasement after Lord Halifax lost the debate over appeasement in May-June 1940? No one?
 
1914 borders for Germany?

That would necessarily entail giving up Austria and Czechoslovakia, plus good chunks of Poland. No go.

Well, who was the main force in favor of appeasement after Lord Halifax lost the debate over appeasement in May-June 1940? No one?

Pretty much no one, I think. Keeping in mind that Churchill led the Conservatives at this time, and Labour was, if anything, even more anti-Nazi than the Conservatives, you realize there wasn't much room on the political spectrum for appeasement.
 
Wouldn't there be some sort of USSR type power struggle between Döntz and Göring becasue of Hitler's will or did he die to soon for that to be a thing?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
That would necessarily entail giving up Austria and Czechoslovakia, plus good chunks of Poland. No go.

Sorry; I meant 1914 borders for Germany + Austria + Bohemia + the Sudetenland.

Hopefully I didn't forget anything this time.

Pretty much no one, I think. Keeping in mind that Churchill led the Conservatives at this time, and Labour was, if anything, even more anti-Nazi than the Conservatives, you realize there wasn't much room on the political spectrum for appeasement.

OK; understood.

Wouldn't there be some sort of USSR type power struggle between Döntz and Göring becasue of Hitler's will or did he die to soon for that to be a thing?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Doenitz only become Hitler's heir very late in the war?
 
No, actually Göring was taken out of Hitler's will in 1941 it only really started to matter when the end was near. It is also a common misconception because of that fact. In 1941 Göring was already fired from all his offices and the party itself, the reason is unknown
 
Quite old? Surely the fact that the Germans were also helping out the Chinese until quite late suggests that they were willing to play both sides if it suited them.

By the time the OP's PoD takes place, yes, it was relatively old. The German-Chinese assistance basically ended the moment the Japanese requested it in the beginning of 1938 with practically no complaint, shortly after the start of the Sino-Japanese war war. That demonstrates pretty nicely which country the Germans valued more as a partner.
 
I have always been of the opinion that Goring was a bit of a buffoon. A marginally competent, arrogant blowhard whose opinion of himself far outweighed his actual abilities. Witness the execution of the Battle Of Britain and the supply of German forces on the Eastern Front as two of many examples. Sycophantic in nature, he was comfortable holding onto someone else's coattails (Hitler's), but I think that if put in the center seat his true nature would have asserted itself and he would have been "unsuccessful".

I will admit that my knowledge of Herr Goring is mostly anecdotal in nature and I have not extensively studied the man, but my studies of this period have left me with this impression.

Goering was fairly intelligent from what I've read, but he flagrantly and repeatedly prioritized his own position over any sort of efficiency. What that means when he doesn't have anyone to schmooze up to I couldn't say.
 
By the time the OP's PoD takes place, yes, it was relatively old. The German-Chinese assistance basically ended the moment the Japanese requested it in the beginning of 1938 with practically no complaint, shortly after the start of the Sino-Japanese war war. That demonstrates pretty nicely which country the Germans valued more as a partner.

It's easy to be more valuable against the Soviets than a power that signs a nonaggression pact with them. Even with Nazi contempt for American strength, there's a vast gulf between that and going to war on behalf of a distant ally. Also, these are the same Nazis who betrayed most every other agreement they ever made, so there's also that.
 
It's easy to be more valuable against the Soviets than a power that signs a nonaggression pact with them.

Not sure what your trying to get at here. Both China and Japan ultimately signed NAPs with the USSR. So what?

Even with Nazi contempt for American strength, there's a vast gulf between that and going to war on behalf of a distant ally. Also, these are the same Nazis who betrayed most every other agreement they ever made, so there's also that.

But by the time the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbour, it isn't just that the Germans and Japanese have the Axis Powers Agreement. It's also that the US was supporting Britain in it's war against Germany to the point that the American Navy was actively assisting the Royal Navy in hunting U-Boats. American hostility to Germany, prompted by the Fall of France and Germany's continued war against Britain, beget German hostility to America in turn.

Then Pearl Harbour happened and Hitler, knowing this meant that he couldn't delay things much longer, declared war. Goering might try to wait it out slightly longer, but with America actively assisting Britain against him as well as Japan (who by attacking the British are also assisting the Germans, however indirectly and ultimately counterproductively), it's going to be politically impossible for him to renounce the Japanese and avoid war that way even if he wants to.
 
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Not sure what your trying to get at here. Both China and Japan ultimately signed NAPs with the USSR. So what?

And China did so three years earlier, so they went under the bus first. At that point (1938), there was a Sino-Russian NAP but not a Japanese one, so they were the ones who showed themselves to be unreliable as an anti-Soviet force.

But by the time the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbour, it isn't just that the Germans and Japanese have the Axis Powers Agreement. It's also that the US was supporting Britain in it's war against Germany to the point that the American Navy was actively assisting the Royal Navy in hunting U-Boats. American hostility to Germany, prompted by the Fall of France and Germany's continued war against Britain, beget German hostility to America in turn.

Then Pearl Harbour happened and Hitler, knowing this meant that he couldn't delay things much longer, declared war. Goering might try to wait it out slightly longer, but with America actively assisting Britain against him as well as Japan (who by attacking the British are also assisting the Germans, however indirectly and ultimately counterproductively), it's going to be politically impossible for him to renounce the Japanese and avoid war that way even if he wants to.

Be that as it may, there's not a lot of incentive for Goering to make the DOW politically easier for Roosevelt. If the US navy gets to attack German ships, then the Kriegsmarine can respond in kind if that's necessary, but still let FDR explain to everyone why it's necessary to distract from getting vengeance for Pearl Harbor.
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Doenitz only become Hitler's heir very late in the war?

Correct. The Wehrmacht and SS let Hitler down by losing the war for him. (It was everyone's fault except Hitler.) Donitz was head if the navy, so he escaped blame and got the dubious reward of being Hitler's successor.
 
Be that as it may, there's not a lot of incentive for Goering to make the DOW politically easier for Roosevelt. If the US navy gets to attack German ships, then the Kriegsmarine can respond in kind if that's necessary, but still let FDR explain to everyone why it's necessary to distract from getting vengeance for Pearl Harbor.

Once the Kriegsmarine does that, FDR has his explanation, his casus belli, as all the anger over Pearl Harbor gets directed at Germany... who as it was already heavily associated with Japan in the minds of the US public to the point polls favored a DoW on Germany even before Hitler made it academic. That the Kriegsmarine may be doing it in retaliation or even self-defense won't matter any more then it did with the Reuben James.
 
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For future reference the Wehrmacht is the whole German military. This includes the Heer (Army) Luftwaffe (Air) and Kreigsmarine (Navy). A common misconception because Heer doesn't sound as cool as Wehrmacht
 
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