Good Norman Sicily PoDs?

Zioneer

Banned
So I'm thinking of rebooting my Norman Sicily TL, but I'm unsure if I want to have the point of divergence be the early death of Pope Innocent II. I'm not sure what other PoDs would be useful (I want to have a surviving independent Sicily, and have it be ruled by the Normans for at least a little while longer than in OTL), but I'm open to ideas.
 
Honestly, you've got a lot of options here. The easiest and most obvious, at least to me, is to have William II stick around longer. As long as he loves even somewhat longer, William II will probably produce an heir, which means that Constance isn't his legal heir, which means that the Holy Roman Empire doesn't have a claim on Sicily.

Going back earlier, you could always have the Battle of Dyrrachium result in Alexios I getting killed - OTL, he suffered a wound to his forehead, and thus it isn't inconceivable that he could be killed. Weakening Constantinople opens southern Greece up for Norman expansion. You could also always have some sort of Sicilian-Genoese, Sicilian-Venetian, or Sicilian-Pisan war (or something similar) that allows for Sicilian expansion in northern Italy. Or, you could have the Sicilians move into Hungary and Croatia. Really, with a POD early enough in Sicilian history, you could see the Sicilians move into just about any area in the central Mediterranean.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Honestly, you've got a lot of options here. The easiest and most obvious, at least to me, is to have William II stick around longer. As long as he loves even somewhat longer, William II will probably produce an heir, which means that Constance isn't his legal heir, which means that the Holy Roman Empire doesn't have a claim on Sicily.

Going back earlier, you could always have the Battle of Dyrrachium result in Alexios I getting killed - OTL, he suffered a wound to his forehead, and thus it isn't inconceivable that he could be killed. Weakening Constantinople opens southern Greece up for Norman expansion. You could also always have some sort of Sicilian-Genoese, Sicilian-Venetian, or Sicilian-Pisan war (or something similar) that allows for Sicilian expansion in northern Italy. Or, you could have the Sicilians move into Hungary and Croatia. Really, with a POD early enough in Sicilian history, you could see the Sicilians move into just about any area in the central Mediterranean.

Well, I want the Byzantines to stick around, and for whatever reason, the Byzantines don't bother the Normans and vice versa. Or at least not Normans in Greece or Byzantines in Italy. I do like the idea of the Sicilians conquering parts of northern Italy or Hungary/Croatia; my original timeline involved King Roger becoming good friends and allies with King Bela the Blind.

As for William, well, I have a soft spot for Tancred of Sicily, and I want to feature him as king in some way, so I don't know if William having surviving kids would work with what I want. Perhaps he still doesn't have kids, but declares Tancred legitimate and makes him his heir, instead of giving over the kingdom to Constance and the Hohenstaufens?
 
Honestly, you've got a lot of options here. The easiest and most obvious, at least to me, is to have William II stick around longer. As long as he loves even somewhat longer, William II will probably produce an heir, which means that Constance isn't his legal heir, which means that the Holy Roman Empire doesn't have a claim on Sicily.

Going back earlier, you could always have the Battle of Dyrrachium result in Alexios I getting killed - OTL, he suffered a wound to his forehead, and thus it isn't inconceivable that he could be killed. Weakening Constantinople opens southern Greece up for Norman expansion. You could also always have some sort of Sicilian-Genoese, Sicilian-Venetian, or Sicilian-Pisan war (or something similar) that allows for Sicilian expansion in northern Italy. Or, you could have the Sicilians move into Hungary and Croatia. Really, with a POD early enough in Sicilian history, you could see the Sicilians move into just about any area in the central Mediterranean.
I'd second this. :D
 
As for William, well, I have a soft spot for Tancred of Sicily, and I want to feature him as king in some way, so I don't know if William having surviving kids would work with what I want. Perhaps he still doesn't have kids, but declares Tancred legitimate and makes him his heir, instead of giving over the kingdom to Constance and the Hohenstaufens?

The problem with that is that William II made a BIG deal about Constance being his legitimate heir while he was childless. The marriage deal was a double-edged sword, as William did secure his northern border with the marriage, but dying without children effectively doomed Sicily.

If you do want to save Tancred, though, you could have the Pope at the time (I forget his name) not hamstring Tancred. I believe that during the Holy Roman invasion, there was a time at which Constance was Tancred's prisoner. However, the Pope, who was Tancred's supporter, asked him to release Constance so that Henry and Tancred could negotiate peacefully. As a result, Tancred had to choose between loosing his most powerful supporter or loosing his best chance for peace. If the Pope allows Tancred to continue to hold Constance prisoner, since she is the only reason Henry could claim Sicily, Tancred could negotiate a favorable peace. It'd probably leave southern Italy a wreck from Henry's invasion and give Tancred some good enemies, but it could save him.
 
Maybe have the engagement of William II. and Maria Komnene (daughter of Manuel I.) result in an early marriage, eventually the birth of a successor and Tancred taking over as regent after William II. dies?
 

Zioneer

Banned
The problem with that is that William II made a BIG deal about Constance being his legitimate heir while he was childless. The marriage deal was a double-edged sword, as William did secure his northern border with the marriage, but dying without children effectively doomed Sicily.

If you do want to save Tancred, though, you could have the Pope at the time (I forget his name) not hamstring Tancred. I believe that during the Holy Roman invasion, there was a time at which Constance was Tancred's prisoner. However, the Pope, who was Tancred's supporter, asked him to release Constance so that Henry and Tancred could negotiate peacefully. As a result, Tancred had to choose between loosing his most powerful supporter or loosing his best chance for peace. If the Pope allows Tancred to continue to hold Constance prisoner, since she is the only reason Henry could claim Sicily, Tancred could negotiate a favorable peace. It'd probably leave southern Italy a wreck from Henry's invasion and give Tancred some good enemies, but it could save him.

Maybe have the engagement of William II. and Maria Komnene (daughter of Manuel I.) result in an early marriage, eventually the birth of a successor and Tancred taking over as regent after William II. dies?

Hmm... I like both of those ideas. The second one is probably more plausible, especially if William II's successor dies while Tancred serves as regent, and he inherits the throne. Either way, that fulfills what I want to have happen.

Keeping Tancred around isn't that necessary, but I was just curious to see if he could survive/keep Norman Sicily free.

And really, a Norman Sicily isn't necessary if I feel like having a Norman Croatia/Hungary instead. I do prefer the multiculturalism and cosmopolitanism nature of Norman Sicily though. I could go for a Hohenstaufen Sicily in a pinch.
 
You could also have Bohemond, the only son of William II and Joan of England survive infancy, or make Constance be born a male, preserving the dynasty.
 

Zioneer

Banned
You could also have Bohemond, the only son of William II and Joan of England survive infancy, or make Constance be born a male, preserving the dynasty.

Another good idea; perhaps young Bohemend is sickly and simply survives for a few years, enabling Tancred as regent (and as an experienced military man) the natural choice for heir rather than the Hohenstaufen puppet Constance?

Or Constance being born male, yeah, that's actually a good idea as well.

I was also reading on Tancred's Wiki page about how arrogantly Richard the Lionheart treated Sicily (looting and burning Messina and forcing Tancred to give huge sums of money for his sister Joana's dowry), so perhaps Tancred could capture and ransom him? Or would that not be possible due to Richard being a would-be crusader?
 
It's possible, but it's a very bad idea unless you're in a position where you can tell the Pope to shove it. Ask Leopold of Austria for both parts.
 

Zioneer

Banned
It's possible, but it's a very bad idea unless you're in a position where you can tell the Pope to shove it. Ask Leopold of Austria for both parts.

Good point. So even though Richard burnt Messina and extorted Tancred for money and the release of his sister, Tancred really couldn't do much to hinder him or ask for reparations?

Hmm... I'm still undecided on the PoD I'd like to use. I don't think I want to use a PoD with Robert Guiscard or anyone before King Roger of Sicily, but I don't have much info (except for Wiki) on PoDs during 1130-1199.
 
Good point. So even though Richard burnt Messina and extorted Tancred for money and the release of his sister, Tancred really couldn't do much to hinder him or ask for reparations?

Hmm... I'm still undecided on the PoD I'd like to use. I don't think I want to use a PoD with Robert Guiscard or anyone before King Roger of Sicily, but I don't have much info (except for Wiki) on PoDs during 1130-1199.

I'm not entirely sure what could be done there - I imagine it would be taken into account in regards to being excommunicated for holding a crusader prisoner (a papal decision, not automatic, I think).

But it would certainly be problematic - Richard has taken the cross, and Tancred may not be in good standing with the Pope.

I think Constance-is-a-boy would be a good POD of those mentioned so far, but that's just me.
 

Zioneer

Banned
I'm not entirely sure what could be done there - I imagine it would be taken into account in regards to being excommunicated for holding a crusader prisoner (a papal decision, not automatic, I think).

But it would certainly be problematic - Richard has taken the cross, and Tancred may not be in good standing with the Pope.

I think Constance-is-a-boy would be a good POD of those mentioned so far, but that's just me.

Yeah, I think I'll go with a William II or Constance PoD. Possibly have Constance be delivered safely into papal hands instead of Henry VI's soldiers intercepting her and delivering her back into German hands, thereby giving both Pope and Sicily a bargaining chip?

Or the Constance-as-a-boy PoD, yeah. Though I really want to use Tancred in some way. Perhaps not as a King, but he seems too interesting (I mean, he's called the "monkey king", "Tancredelous", and rubbed shoulders with Richard the Lionheart and others, after all) to waste.
 
Yeah, I think I'll go with a William II or Constance PoD. Possibly have Constance be delivered safely into papal hands instead of Henry VI's soldiers intercepting her and delivering her back into German hands, thereby giving both Pope and Sicily a bargaining chip?

Or the Constance-as-a-boy PoD, yeah. Though I really want to use Tancred in some way. Perhaps not as a King, but he seems too interesting (I mean, he's called the "monkey king", "Tancredelous", and rubbed shoulders with Richard the Lionheart and others, after all) to waste.

I agree. Even if he's not king, someone like that should not just be ignored or butterflied away.
 

Zioneer

Banned
I agree. Even if he's not king, someone like that should not just be ignored or butterflied away.

Exactly. Which is why I'm hesitant to go with the "Constance as a boy" PoD, because if she/he is William II's heir, then Tancred has less of a reason to be a major Sicilian figure (plus Henry VI will probably invade anyway, even without Constance as a reason).

Perhaps Henry of Capua survives, and so William II doesn't make an alliance with the Germans, and has a surviving heir?

In any case, I also want an alt-version of Frederick II, because he's another historical figure who is too good to waste. Perhaps he's Norman, or of whatever nationality takes over after the D'Hautvilles die out in my TL?
 
Exactly. Which is why I'm hesitant to go with the "Constance as a boy" PoD, because if she/he is William II's heir, then Tancred has less of a reason to be a major Sicilian figure (plus Henry VI will probably invade anyway, even without Constance as a reason).

Perhaps Henry of Capua survives, and so William II doesn't make an alliance with the Germans, and has a surviving heir?

That could work. Henry (Staufen) may still be interested in Sicily, but this might be safer.

In any case, I also want an alt-version of Frederick II, because he's another historical figure who is too good to waste. Perhaps he's Norman, or of whatever nationality takes over after the D'Hautvilles die out in my TL?

That could work. Not sure what kind of elements had to come together to get Frederick, but I agree that he's pretty dang cool - even if probably one of the least accomplished emperors (as distinct from Sicilian kings) of the period.
 

Zioneer

Banned
That could work. Henry (Staufen) may still be interested in Sicily, but this might be safer.



That could work. Not sure what kind of elements had to come together to get Frederick, but I agree that he's pretty dang cool - even if probably one of the least accomplished emperors (as distinct from Sicilian kings) of the period.

Alright, I think I'll go for a surviving Henry of Capua PoD. I'll still feature Tancred (though who knows in what way). Anything I need to look out for in terms of Sicily's possible enemies (like the still-envious HRE) or allies, and it's internal tensions?
 
Alright, I think I'll go for a surviving Henry of Capua PoD. I'll still feature Tancred (though who knows in what way). Anything I need to look out for in terms of Sicily's possible enemies (like the still-envious HRE) or allies, and it's internal tensions?

Not that you haven't already noticed, I think.
 
Anything I need to look out for in terms of Sicily's possible enemies (like the still-envious HRE) or allies, and it's internal tensions?

In OTL Tancred desperately wanted to be on good terms with Richard the Lionheart because he was a natural, potential ally. Unfortunately for both, Richard made this impossible. This was a mistake because when the time came to return to England, Richard could have used the help of the excellent Sicilian navy. And in return, some part of the English forces could have enlisted with Sicily.
 
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