- Is the United Provinces still ruled by the House of Hanover?
- Does Portugal still own Macau?
- Who’s the oldest living Prime Minster of the United Provinces?
Wonder who is the current Pope then.
Good King George - A Republican Britain and a Monarchist America
- Thread starter Lewie
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That first question actually raises a good point - did Hanover ever separate from the United Provinces? I saw that a city called Hanover was listed as one of the most populous cities of the UP, but I figured it was just another Hanover located in America. Without Victoria splitting the British Hanovers and German Hanovers though, it may have not become independent, or at least became independent at a later time. Part of this question, of course, requires more knowledge about Europe in general.
Not going to lie, that'd be pretty wild--a North American nation with a province located in Europe. It'd be a neat reversal of some of the relations that we see today (i.e., French Guiana as a part of metropole France).
There will be more on this later, but Africa is... different. I hope to have a map done of it soon. That said, a look behind the curtain never hurts. Borders around it are still using the base map, so they'll be changed soon enough.
The Caribbean is too. much of it remains in colonial hands due to a very different decolonization environment. And Cuba is an American province. The region was a battleground for decades, as the United Provinces tried to retake lost holdings there, largely failing in those efforts.
This will come in stages, though.
The end of the Frist British Civil War came not with a bang but with a whimper. The forces of Parliament and the Loyalists were simply too depleted to continue fighting, the Loyalists were incapable of taking back the Isles lacking sufficient naval forces, and Parliament saw no way of retaking mainland America that made fiscal sense, particularly after Cornwallis won at Yorktown. After over 6 years of bitter struggle, the war was over, and peace negotiations began.
The two factions signed the Peace of London. Britain would cede their North American holdings to the newly formed United Provinces, and scattered Loyalist forces in the Carrabiean would surrender. Though the exact terms of the Peace are rather complicated, as both states claimed to be legally the successor to Great Britain, and officially the peace acted as more of an armistice agreement, between nations that viewed the other as in a state of rebellion. Despite this, it bought an effective end to the First British Civil War and secured both nations for the time being as independent states.
While their land-based American empire was dead, Britain's Imperial days would be far from over, With their holdings elsewhere secure, having achieved victories against the European powers that intervened in the war, the stage was set for what in time would be seen as the "second" British Empire, even as the "first" went up in flames.
Extract from - A History of the British peoples beginning with the Great Schism, by Emily Blunt
Map on the way, but the United Provinces holds no mainland South American territory, though not through lack of trying, As for the North, it includes all of OTL Canada, the United States and Cuba, and a little extra.
There is, and there isn't. Officially the Nationalist Party want Malta to be independent, but 2 of the last 5 Nationalist First Ministers have been open unionists. Malta is the beating heart of Britain's Mediterranean military presence and a major source of employment on the Island, and the UC has made it clear that if Malta becomes independent, they'll move the Mediterranean fleet headquarters to either Gibraltar or the Cyprus bases. Mostly, these days Nationalists talk up independence but have become a "More for Malta" party than anything else.
Indeed he is, as for who the Pope is, I'll have something on that eventually. As for George here, his family moved down south to escape a time of trouble in the Argentine Republic, and unlike many others never went back. He's a 6 term socialist Prime Minister of the Realm of Patagonia, and probably the most famous Patagonian politician... well ever. He's expected to retire after the next election.
Infamously he suggested that Wales should leave the United Commonwealth and unite with Patagonia on a trip to Cardiff in 2012. That didn't go well.
1 - Yep! Though with the ascension of its first female head in 2018, as recently married Queen Victoria, that might change in a few decades. Though an act is being moved through Parliament to enshrine Hanover as the name of the Royal House permanently.
2 - You'll see soon
3 - With the death of Sir George Bush, 1st Earl of Greenwich, that honour belongs to Sir Jerry Brown, Earl of San Francisco.
Dammit, why didn't I think of that! Hanover here is just OTL Dallas, named for the Royal House. But I do like the idea of having Hanover as an overseas province. Something to consider.
My preliminary thought is that the Kingdom of Hanover is a member state of the German Confederation, with the house being split later since the American Government didn't like the idea of their sovereign being the underling of the German Monarch.
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I’d imagine Hanover would likely be it’s own nation with the same/related monarch, maybe with some type of Governor General in charge in the case of the former. Hanover being part of the UPA would probably draw the country into too many European conflicts to be worth it.
Good points all around! My old idea was that George's second son was named Elector at the Peace of London, though he was forced into exile during the Napoleonic Wars, though was restored at the Vienna Congress after Napoleon was forced back into France proper and accepted the Frankfurt proposals.
Though it's something I'm working on
Why not combine both ideas? The descendents of George's second son could start off as the hereditary Governor Generals of Hanover until later in the 19th century when one of them becomes King of Hanover.
edit: Actually, I think you should stay with your original idea. Given that the British royal family is across the Altantic.
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I honestly prefer that idea personally. American Hanover seems a little too wacky, given that now the British Royal Family is all the way across the Atlantic with a hostile power between them and Hanover as opposed to just across the North Sea.
I also see that the Frankfurt proposals are accepted by Napoleon ITTL. I’m definitely looking forward to seeing more of Europe in that case. Can we expect to still see the Bonapartes ruling over France? It would be interesting if Britain is TTL’s model republic in a sea of monarchies in the same sense that OTL Britain is the model monarchy in a sea of republics.
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Ditto. I think the original idea Lewie had would work the best. Just split the dynasties like OTL 1836, and the problem is both easily solved and still very unique and interesting.
Yeah, it is. And thanks for pointing it out, just fixed it.
Oh, the Bercow-Brown debates were a thing of legend in the Commons. Largely since they devolved into nondescript noises around half way through.
Yeah, it would be a little wacky to have that, and would just drag America into Bismark's wild ride. I think American policymakers would feel the same way about it as the British did, a chain around their neck tying them to European affairs. If anyone wants to contribute to this issue, please do. I have one notion, that does lean toward the rather wacky. So we'll see what happens.
But I think we'll go with a split Dynasty, with the dual branches of the House of Hanover ruling over their respective realms. Though in the case of Hannover itself, perhaps there may have been change to the dynasty. We'll see.
That he does, Britain agrees thanks to rather changed circumstances in much of the leadership, and with France crippled and a British Army under the victorious Wellington ready to move, Napoleon decided to play the long game. The 19th century will be the great game between a resurgent Napoleonic France and the United Commonwealth before things fall apart during the world wars. I'll have something on that soon.
Are the Bonapartes still ruling over France? Yes. But the how, will be the fun part.
And yeah, you're right on the money when it comes to that. Britain is the model republic, with more than a few states making use of the title Lord Protector in the British syle. That said, the odd nature of the British system is rarely replicated.
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If the Hanovers are headed by a queen, does that mean that there's going to a change of ruling families after the demise of the Crown?
And if the seat of the monarchy moved overseas before the Act of Union, then how come the UP includes St Patrick's Saltire on her flag?
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How were the natives treated ITL? How did slavery turn out?
And if the seat of the monarchy moved overseas before the Act of Union, then how come the UP includes St Patrick's Saltire on her flag?
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How were the natives treated ITL? How did slavery turn out?
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You know, people have been asking about who the Pope is since Pope Francis is a Prime Minister ITTL, but I just realized that another religion has probably gone through a lot more change: the Church of England. IOTL, the Episcopalian Church split off from Anglicanism following the Revolution due to not wanting to be associated with the monarchy. Here, of course, there are probably no complaints from American Anglicans about Good King George being the head of their church, leading to the Church of England surviving as the Church of America, which is simple enough.
Then there's the matter of Britain. In most republican Britain timelines, the monarchy's simply deposed outright, meaning that any church reforms are largely self-contained due to no competing claims as to who's the proper Church of England. Here though, the British monarchy and Church of England have just been sent into exile, meaning both of those institutions still exist but the British will want nothing to do with either of them. Do the British found their own Episcopalian Church equivalent in the isles that's separated from royal authority? How do the British clergy respond to this, seeing as many of them were probably much more monarchist than the Anglican clergy of the OTL American colonies? What have relations between the two churches looked like?
Also, on an unrelated note, it is interesting to me that the United Provinces is still gunning for reunification with the rest of the Anglosphere. If a referendum were actually held in Britain about whether to restore the monarchy, what percentage of Britons would vote in favor?
Then there's the matter of Britain. In most republican Britain timelines, the monarchy's simply deposed outright, meaning that any church reforms are largely self-contained due to no competing claims as to who's the proper Church of England. Here though, the British monarchy and Church of England have just been sent into exile, meaning both of those institutions still exist but the British will want nothing to do with either of them. Do the British found their own Episcopalian Church equivalent in the isles that's separated from royal authority? How do the British clergy respond to this, seeing as many of them were probably much more monarchist than the Anglican clergy of the OTL American colonies? What have relations between the two churches looked like?
Also, on an unrelated note, it is interesting to me that the United Provinces is still gunning for reunification with the rest of the Anglosphere. If a referendum were actually held in Britain about whether to restore the monarchy, what percentage of Britons would vote in favor?
I wonder what the Jacobites would be doing ITTL. Maybe they (barely) survive the Young Pretender and continue their attempts at taking back the Crown.
Good King George
Good King George
George III (George William Frederick; 4 June 1738 – 29 January 1820) was the first King of the United Provinces of America reigning from 12 October 1784 to 29 January 1820, and the final monarch of Great Britain and Ireland from 25 October 1760 to 12 October 1784. He was concurrently Duke and Prince-elector of Brunswick-Lüneburg ("Hanover") until 1784 when he abdicated in favour of his son, William, having never visited the country. Known as Good King George in America and George the Tyrant in the British Isles, he remains the most controversial monarch in British History.
George's life and early reign were marked by a series of military conflicts involving his kingdoms, much of the rest of Europe, and places farther afield in Africa, the Americas and Asia. Early in his reign, Great Britain defeated France in the Seven Years' War, becoming the dominant European power in North America and India. Despite these upheavals abroad, domestically during much of this time, the King behaved as was expected of a constitutional monarch of the time. However, this would change drastically beginning in the 1760s when he began to insert himself into colonial policy towards America. George, who had displayed traits of quiet absolutism in his youth and afterwards, had developed a deep sympathy for the American position after coming into contact with Benjamin Franklin, and by the 1760s his court was "The Most American Place in London" as these connections furthered. His efforts to delay or alter acts in line with American concerns peaked with his refusal to grant royal ascent to the Massachusetts Government Act, which he regarded as tyrannical, and in opposition to the "Rights of Englishmen" These actions would eventually trigger the First British Civil War, as the Whig Party moved to remove a King they believed was overstepping his position. After a failed attempt to arrest him and place his elder son on the throne the King, who viewed these efforts as nothing short of treason, would respond by ordering the arrest of the coup plotters, Parliament would denounce this, and over the next several weeks both sides manoeuvred for control of the capital. The first true battle of the war would be the skirmish at Hyde Park, with matters only escalating from there.
In 1779, George was forced to flee to America, after the fall of London to Parliamentary forces. Arriving in the colonies, he would oversee the defeat of Parlimarety forces in America, the appointment of the American negotiators for the Peace of London, and afterwards the establishment of a new nation. Named King of the United Provinces by the Continental Congress in 1784, he would create the office of Prime Minister of the United Provinces in 1788, call the election of the first American Parliament, order the construction of a new capital on the banks of the Potomac River, spearheaded the formation of a standing American Army, and the reconstruction of the Royal Navy. When George III died in 1820, the Prince of Wales and the Appalachians succeeded him as King George IV.
A controversial figure in his own time, and into the modern era, he remains both landed and reviled for his actions, the extent to which the Civil War can be claimed on him remains a debated question.
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I mentioned this earlier, I think, but yes and no. Parliament is moving an act through to keep the house as Hanover, and few people are really opposed to that. After all "Why should our Queen take her husband's name?" would be a view found across the ideological spectrum
The flag was created to stand for both of the King's possessions ITTL during the early phases of the Civil War and was adopted as the flag of the United Provinces since legally its full name is The United Provinces of America, Great Britain, and Ireland. The In-Exile thing will come up a lot
Slightly better, though sadly not by much. And it will come to an end in a bloody civil war, though things will be slightly different here.
So, at some point, I'll answer this more fully with a series of write-ups, but here are some basic ideas
Officially, the Church of England is still intact, though you're right, was gutted and reformed by Parliament as they wanted little to do with an institution that so thoroughly backed a Tyrant, after these reforms were completed, the remaining monarchists largely kept their mouths shut, to retired and left for America. I'm tempted to have the Lord Protectors named "Governer-General of the Church" or something like that.
During the conflict itself, the Church of England was split right down the middle. Though most wanted peace to win out much of the clergy, as you correctly assumed, backed the king being Loyalistists, and it's estimated over 1/10 outright joined the king in exile, taking many on their parishes with them. Until 1987 the Church of America and the Church of England both claimed authority over the other, they are today fully separated and get along well enough. Both churches are members of the Anglican Community, similar to OTL, though both hold bi-yearly synods to discuss joint matters.
If you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them
It's illegal to ask that question in polling. But the answer is no, I'll have some more on the polling on that soon. That said support for the Community of British Nations, is rather high among conservatives
In Britain, being labelled a Monarchist, or god forbid a reunificationist is a one-way trip to political exile.
The Heir is titled the Prince of Wales and the Appalachians the Americans take their claim on the Home Islands rather seriously, and it would be seen as an act of surrender to ditch Price of Wales
That is a brilliant idea, I might try and do something with it!
I’d be interested in hearing more about Anglo-American relations. On the one hand, things seem to be amicable enough given the existence of the Community of British Nations, which would lead me to imagine some sort of special relationship like OTL. On the other hand, the United Provinces still claims to be the rightful sovereign of the United Commonwealth, or at least would very much like to impose their monarch on the British, which I’m sure has to sour relations at least somewhat.