Gone The New Hope

So The Deer Hunter does even better at the Oscars than it did in our timeline, which makes me wonder what will happen with Heaven's Gate.

Based on Moonraker's success, Spielberg's career is going even better than at this point in OTL. 1941 was seen as a disappointment both critically and at the box office. From what I've read, it seems like Spielberg thought he could do no wrong at that point in his career. He has said something to the effect that he believed his movies couldn't fail. It will be interesting to see how a longer streak of successes might affect his judgment ITTL.

I also have to wonder what Donner will do instead of Superman.

Heaven's Gate's failure has quite a lot of butterfly potential, but now I'm concerned about ending New Hollywood as in OTL and how this would relate to Lucas and Ford's career. I already have Lucas and Spielberg doing even better in OTL, so it seems like having Heaven's Gate be the unmitigated disaster it was OTL would be unfair to the premise of this TL.

1941 was really his only bad movie from this period as far as directing, so he won't really have much of a reason to check his ego TTL, since 1941 won't get made. Of course, Spielberg thinking he's the best won't really be far from true TTL, so by the time he has a humbling experience we'll already have some better films to show for it.

Donner's career will stay pretty much OTL post Superman for a while.

Speaking of Superman, prepare yourselves for a few years of serious superhero features and perhaps a role for Harry Ford in one of them...
 
If he was never hired to begin with, then probably Damien: Omen II, just like he'd originally planned before the Salkinds offered him Superman.
I actually kind of like Damien: Omen II. It could be a better movie in Donner's hands.
1941 was really his only bad movie from this period as far as directing, so he won't really have much of a reason to check his ego TTL, since 1941 won't get made. Of course, Spielberg thinking he's the best won't really be far from true TTL, so by the time he has a humbling experience we'll already have some better films to show for it.
But by the time he experiences failure, there is the risk it could be a very costly failure. If he continues to believe that his movies will always be box office smashes, he might get to a point were he no longer becomes worried about going over budget. If he directs a movie which goes over-budget and winds up becoming a big flop, his career will be negatively affected. In OTL, he's been able to bounce back from his relatively few missteps, but if he gets into the sort of situation like Cimino did with Heaven's Gate or Coppola did with One from the Heart he might not.

Your timeline doesn't have to go in that direction. I just find the idea of Speilberg's career having a trajectory similar to Cimino's and Coppola's of OTL interesting.
 
I'm not so sure that Ledger is superior to Hamill, with the exception of his role as the Joker. IMHO, Ledger is the far more overrated actor, but I know we disagree on this.

We can agree on Hamill being underrated in OTL.

concerning the larger cultural impact of Star Wars:
But perhaps the most important thing TTL is that science fiction, fantasy, and superhero movies are viewed as far more legitimate far earlier impacting gross sales initially, and later film in general as a result.

I understand what you mean now. This remind me of a similar timeline and it sounds interesting.


An earlier Ian McKellen success will probably not much effect when he comes out (perhaps a bit earlier),

I think you are right. It would be interesting if the nerd-community would become a driving force in tolerance concerning homosexuality. Think of the iconic t-shirt:
2B4 is gay
and that's okay

As for his quote about sexual tension, it's something a young Ian (and even earlier OTL roles in film) did extremely well and something which might improve the overall quality of the film. I'll describe more about 2-B4 and his role in the development of the franchise TTL in the next update.

I am looking forward to that.
 
What an incredible observation, really. I had literally no idea about any of that. I'm not sure how to incorporate it, though. Feel free to pm me any ideas you have or resources I could use and I'll credit you.

Sorry, i am not that good when it comes to companies
 
My apologies for the delay in responding! A great new update, as always. For some more specific thoughts:

Top Three Films of 1978 by Gross: [1]

1. Superman: Starring Christopher Reeves. Directed by Richard Donner and Guy Hamilton.
2. Grease: Starring John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John. Directed by Randal Kleiser.
3. Animal House: Starring John Belushi. Directed by John Landis.
In addition to Superman finishing ahead of Grease bolstering science-fiction and superhero films, it's very likely that it would further hobble movie musicals. Grease was as sure-fire a hit as could be mustered in that genre during the late 1970s, and it not topping the box-office for the year (the last time that a musical has ever done so, IIRC, at least stateside) would likely give many executives pause in green-lighting other, similar projects (including the wider Grease franchise, which IOTL bombed with the second film).
TheInfiniteApe said:
“Steven Spielberg, who exploded onto the scene following films like JAWS and CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND is the Director and Executive Producer of the new comedy I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND. Spielberg has shown potential as the new West Coast Wunderkind by completing the Universal picture before tackling a new James Bond film, MOONRAKER, as well as writing and potentially directing a rumored adventure serial homage with the hottest director in town, George Lucas. We sat down with the highly acclaimed filmmaker to talk about his past, his present, and his many upcoming projects…”

- Harold Hayes, 20/20, June 6th, 1978 [2]
I hope this doesn't mean you're planning on butterflying the movie I think you're planning on butterflying :eek:
TheInfiniteApe said:
“I didn’t speak twelve words to Steven after that until 1983…”

- Robert Zemeckis
But will that be soon enough?

TheInfiniteApe said:
“Returning to the public eye after a reclusive year of getting healthy, ELVIS PRESLEY has been announced as the vocalist for the main and ending themes of the soundtrack to the upcoming installment of IAN FLEMING’s JAMES BOND franchise, MOONRAKER directed by STEVEN SPIELBERG. Taking time out from his ISOLAR II world tour, pop culture colossus DAVID BOWIE will provide backing vocals on the songs, scheduled for release along with the film next year. The two hit-makers are rumored to be in talks to collaborate further with original material, although nothing official has been announced.”
Not too many rock-and-rollers made Bond themes IOTL. What I'm imagining ITTL is something between "Thunderball" (performed by Tom Jones) and "Live and Let Die" (performed by Wings). David Bowie, on the other hand, is no stranger to film soundtracks, so I'm sure he'll make it somewhat more Bond-like than Elvis alone would have managed. That still tickles me, though, the possibility of a Bond theme with "uh-uh-huh" sprinkled throughout the lyrics.
TheInfiniteApe said:
“After literally coming out of the woodwork with AMERICAN GRAFFITI, STAR WARS, HEROES, and FORCE 10 FROM NAVARONNE, ex-carpenter HARRISON FORD is preparing to work himself into superstardom with four upcoming features. FORD appears in FRANCIS COPPOLA’S Vietnam epic APOCALYPSE NOW, is featured in WWII romance HANOVER STREET, and stars alongside GENE WILDER in THE FRISCO KID. HARRISON FORD will also return to science fiction by starring in the space thriller ALIEN directed by relatively unknown newcomer RIDLEY SCOTT. When questioned about the much talked about sequel to STAR WARS, FORD had this to say, ‘The script I’ve seen is truly remarkable and I couldn’t be more thrilled to be getting back to the Falcon.’ Filming on STAR WARS II begins next spring and FORD plans to take some time off to prepare.”
Ford was exceptionally busy in the late 1970s IOTL, as well, though certainly not to this extent. I worry that he'll get burnout, especially if he carries on with that pace into the 1980s (as he did IOTL; Empire, Raiders, Blade Runner, Jedi, Temple of Doom, Witness...). Yes, he's a great everyman, but still.

TheInfiniteApe said:
“At last night’s Academy Awards ceremony DEER HUNTER swept the evening, taking home seven Oscar statuettes out of nine nominations. The MICHAEL CIMINO film starring ROBERT DE NIRO won Best Picture, Best Director, Best Actor, Best Supporting Actor (Christopher Walken), Best Supporting Actress (Meryl Streep), Best Original Screenplay, and Best Cinematography. Another big winner last night was GUY HAMILTON’s SUPERMAN which won Best Original Score (JOHN WILLIAMS), Best Sound Mixing, Best Film Editing, and Best Visual Effects. THE BUDDY HOLLY STORY also deserves mention as it was nominated for Best Actor (GARY BUSEY) and Best Sound Mixing and won the Academy Award for Best Adaptation Score.
Allow me. IOTL, Jon Voight won Best Actor for yet another of the many Vietnam films of the late 1970s (Coming Home, about a disabled veteran who falls in love with Hanoi Jane herself), and De Niro would not win Best Actor until two years later, for his turn as Jake LaMotta in Raging Bull. Superman did not win Best Original Score (despite easily being Williams' most famous non-Spielberg, non-Lucas assignment) - Giorgio Moroder won for Midnight Express instead. (A disco song - "Last Dance", sung by his frequent collaborator Donna Summer, also won for Best Original Song that year). Interestingly, Film Editing went to The Deer Hunter, not Superman, IOTL.
TheInfiniteApe said:
TOP TEN GROSSING FILMS OF 1979: [5]
Amazing, when you really look at it, how strong a year for film 1979 really was. All of those films are remembered today, though there are a couple of high-profile duds (The Motionless Picture, of course, not to mention Rocky II - everyone remembers III and IV better, and for good reason - at least they were glorious 1980s cheese).
TheInfiniteApe said:
“When the time came to make the sequel to STAR WARS I knew I didn’t want to direct it myself. I had known Kersh in USC and considered him at least a mentor and friend and even something of a hero. I knew I could trust him to helm such a dark picture with wit and intuition. I made the right choice.”

- George Lucas, 2010
Praising Irvin Kershner. Another fantastic sign. Here's hoping that he has a better career ITTL, though I have a good feeling about that.
TheInfiniteApe said:
- Sir Ian McKellen, 2001
Very pleased to have been right on that front! :D

TheInfiniteApe said:
AUTHOR'S NOTE: The biopic is designed to show two things. A. That Lucas' story in the context of New Hollywood is something people want to see TTL. and B. That Steven and George have an even closer relationship in TTL (hard to imagine, right?) and that relationship keeps Lucas even more reigned in TTL. Lucas will not get divorced from Marica TTL, either. Or at least not for some years more than OTL
Glad to hear about George and Marcia sticking together. To be honest, I really don't see them divorcing if George doesn't turn into Jorge, though that's obviously your call.

Keep up the good work! :)
 
It would be because he died with so much potentional yet ahead, before his career-making film is released... and in a car wreck. Sound familiar? ;)

Exactly, and I hate to say it Heath Ledger's performance was overrated. It was pretty good but not Academy Award material and I think he very well might have lost it if he didn't die before hand.
 
Maybe the film doesn't get made. ITC's treatment of Clayton Moore (the original Lone Ranger) hurt the film so badly before its release it deserves a place in worst publicity leading up to the release of a film/TV series, et. al. (one quote on TVTropes.org says that "it would have won a Razzie for Worst Publicity had the category existed.").
 
1. My apologies for the delay in responding! A great new update, as always. For some more specific thoughts:

2. In addition to Superman finishing ahead of Grease bolstering science-fiction and superhero films, it's very likely that it would further hobble movie musicals. Grease was as sure-fire a hit as could be mustered in that genre during the late 1970s, and it not topping the box-office for the year (the last time that a musical has ever done so, IIRC, at least stateside) would likely give many executives pause in green-lighting other, similar projects (including the wider Grease franchise, which IOTL bombed with the second film).

3. I hope this doesn't mean you're planning on butterflying the movie I think you're planning on butterflying :eek:
But will that be soon enough?

4. Not too many rock-and-rollers made Bond themes IOTL. What I'm imagining ITTL is something between "Thunderball" (performed by Tom Jones) and "Live and Let Die" (performed by Wings). David Bowie, on the other hand, is no stranger to film soundtracks, so I'm sure he'll make it somewhat more Bond-like than Elvis alone would have managed. That still tickles me, though, the possibility of a Bond theme with "uh-uh-huh" sprinkled throughout the lyrics.

5. Ford was exceptionally busy in the late 1970s IOTL, as well, though certainly not to this extent. I worry that he'll get burnout, especially if he carries on with that pace into the 1980s (as he did IOTL; Empire, Raiders, Blade Runner, Jedi, Temple of Doom, Witness...). Yes, he's a great everyman, but still.

6. Allow me. IOTL, Jon Voight won Best Actor for yet another of the many Vietnam films of the late 1970s (Coming Home, about a disabled veteran who falls in love with Hanoi Jane herself), and De Niro would not win Best Actor until two years later, for his turn as Jake LaMotta in Raging Bull. Superman did not win Best Original Score (despite easily being Williams' most famous non-Spielberg, non-Lucas assignment) - Giorgio Moroder won for Midnight Express instead. (A disco song - "Last Dance", sung by his frequent collaborator Donna Summer, also won for Best Original Song that year). Interestingly, Film Editing went to The Deer Hunter, not Superman, IOTL.

7. Amazing, when you really look at it, how strong a year for film 1979 really was. All of those films are remembered today, though there are a couple of high-profile duds (The Motionless Picture, of course, not to mention Rocky II - everyone remembers III and IV better, and for good reason - at least they were glorious 1980s cheese).

8. Praising Irvin Kershner. Another fantastic sign. Here's hoping that he has a better career ITTL, though I have a good feeling about that.
Very pleased to have been right on that front! :D

9. Glad to hear about George and Marcia sticking together. To be honest, I really don't see them divorcing if George doesn't turn into Jorge, though that's obviously your call.

10. Keep up the good work! :)

1. You never need to apologize to me! Thank you, again. Everyone who comments, but specifically you, Glen, and Vultan are big reasons for me to keep this up and make it good. Thank you.

2. It won't totally ruin Travolta, but yes... this TL is ripping the legs off of films where people sing for no reason and somehow everyone knows all the words and dance moves.

3. It will be right on time, my friend.

4. Actually, Elvis does the same song that Shirley Bassey did OTL and sings it in a style similar to say... American Trilogy. Bowie provides backing vocals on the chorus only. They both double track, which is actually something rather rare for an Elvis Presley song.

5. He is busier so far, but not really with much bigger roles yet or much more hectic shooting schedules. I've got to make him just a little busier though, at least until the mid eighties...

6. So what butterflies do you foresee? ;)

7. If you look at it even closer, you see how the one horror hit of OTL loses serious ground compared with sci-fi and fantasy action. And well it should, because after the impact of a slightly better and drastically better received Star Wars all of the sci-fi films in that list are slightly improved over their OTL counterpart. Including Alien and the film "Where Nomad Has Gone Before..."

Also note that since Harrison Ford has a relatively minor but still starring role in Alien, his relationship with Ridley Scott is already much improved, and his new role TTL as something of a dramatic creative consultant will have butterflies very soon as well. In more films than just... well, I'll just leave it at that.

8. Making Kersh's career much better is stretching it, but overall expect a better film than Empire, and of course, following my current pattern and trajectory, expect it to do far better. Jorge OTL has never, AFAIK, been too harsh on Kersh, and in TTL he is dripping with the man's praise. I think we can all confidently say without spoiling anything that Jorge is dead TTL and expect that to change quite a lot of things as well.

And yes, you nailed Sir Ian McKellen... figuratively, of course. There are some Tolkien butterflies to consider soon and very soon.

9. Not sure how much more of their marriage is needed to save us from Jake Lloyd and Jar-Jar, and since I'm a sucker for a good love story, Marcia's pretty much in for the long haul.

10. I'll try. You too! And thanks again.

Any mention for 1981's Legend of the Lone Ranger? What about its leading man, one Klinton Spilsbury?

Nope. It's only 1979. We'll see how that fiasco turns out...

Exactly, and I hate to say it Heath Ledger's performance was overrated. It was pretty good but not Academy Award material and I think he very well might have lost it if he didn't die before hand.

I agree 100%.

Maybe the film doesn't get made. ITC's treatment of Clayton Moore (the original Lone Ranger) hurt the film so badly before its release it deserves a place in worst publicity leading up to the release of a film/TV series, et. al. (one quote on TVTropes.org says that "it would have won a Razzie for Worst Publicity had the category existed.").

I never saw it and haven't researched far enough passed my next two or three blockbusters to consider it much. But any of you fans (or foes) of the film should definitely pm me to consult.

As a matter of fact, any of you feel free to consult on this anytime through pm, and I'll be sure to give credit where credit is due.

We've got a lot to cover into the eighties and nineties and I'm afraid once the butterflies start to mutate it's going to be a hard one to finish alone.

Love you all, and thanks for listening.

EDIT: Update hopefully sometime during this extremely busy week.
 
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Stolengood

Banned
Might I make a few suggestions plot-wise for Moonraker? The first treatment, penned by Tom Mankiewicz, was written sometime in late 1977, and featured, as a key sequence, Bond and the love interest being keelhauled by Hugo Drax (the sequence was an unused one from the Live and Let Die novel); IOTL, it was eventually excised and re-used in For Your Eyes Only, but with Spielberg onboard, a water-related sequence of this sort might just be his forte... ;)

I would also request you give the heroine a better name than Holly Goodhead. Gala Brand, the Fleming original, would suffice.
 
If Legend of the Lone Ranger does get made in this TL, my choice would be James Keach, who actually dubbed the voice of Klinton Spilsbury!! At least Keach did have the Ranger's authoritative voice and could shoot and ride a horse.
 
but overall expect a better film than Empire, and of course, following my current pattern and trajectory, expect it to do far better.

Of course, you can improve ESB's box office. Completely undeservedly, it ranks last when it comes to box office performance.

But a better film than "The Empire Strikes Back"? That's hard to imagine. It's like saying you let Leonardo paint a better Mona Lisa. OTL, it really stands out from all six episodes and is one of the great masterpieces of film-making, IMHO (and the IMDB-Top-250-list supports my view).

I am really curious what you will be trying.
 

Stolengood

Banned
I hope he does something with the wonderful flying-lizard-riding people of Bespin from the original draft of Empire; there was so much they could've done with that, but they never showed up in the finished film...
 
Sorry, it's taking so long, I don't have the internet.

Also, in writing my treatment I accidentally wrote essentially a script. Far too detailed to be digestible here. I'm having to trim down the length considerably.

As far as other cultural references, that may have to wait until after The Rebellion Strikes Back.
 

Deimos

Banned
[...]
Also, in writing my treatment I accidentally wrote essentially a script. Far too detailed to be digestible here. I'm having to trim down the length considerably.

[...]

Maybe for posting the summary in this fine TL but please consider saving the whole script because I can imagine some readers (such as myself :rolleyes:) wanting to read (perhaps via PM or other means) the whole script as long as they promise not to derail the TL by talking about it here or focusing on miniscule details.
 
Sorry, it's taking so long, I don't have the internet.
Well, it's good to see you back. I hope that you'll manage to find yourself a more permanent connection soon.

TheInfiniteApe said:
Also, in writing my treatment I accidentally wrote essentially a script. Far too detailed to be digestible here. I'm having to trim down the length considerably.
You accidentally wrote a script? :eek: If only we were all capable of such accidents.

I agree with Deimos, I would love to see the full script, and I hope that would be possible in some form :)
 
Really good timeline! One issue I have is Kenobi surviving, I always thought that it was the character's death was because the actor was not interested in starring in another Star Wars film, was that mistaken?
 
Well, it's good to see you back. I hope that you'll manage to find yourself a more permanent connection soon.

You accidentally wrote a script? :eek: If only we were all capable of such accidents.

I agree with Deimos, I would love to see the full script, and I hope that would be possible in some form :)

Thanks and me too. Trying to find the best deal locally at the moment, and I can be a bit of an old lady about shopping around... this may take some time.

Yes, I accidentally wrote something between a script and a massively detailed treatment. Unfortunately, while trimming it down, much of the greater detail has been lost... but it's still fecking massive.

Maybe for posting the summary in this fine TL but please consider saving the whole script because I can imagine some readers (such as myself :rolleyes:) wanting to read (perhaps via PM or other means) the whole script as long as they promise not to derail the TL by talking about it here or focusing on miniscule details.

You and Brainbin will get enormous lengths of too much detail, though not as much as I started with.

Really good timeline! One issue I have is Kenobi surviving, I always thought that it was the character's death was because the actor was not interested in starring in another Star Wars film, was that mistaken?

Thanks so much for reading and commenting!

I understand where you're coming from but I thought about it and there are a few points to consider:

Yes, historically Alec had serious trouble not only with Star Wars but also its success and how it overshadowed an otherwise extremely sterling career as a respected thespian in a ton of more conventional motion pictures. However, remember that:

1. This did not prevent him from appearing in the next two installments, remember. There's no reason to assume he'll have a much greater role than OTL in subsequent films.

2. In TTL, compassion for Hamill, a greatly improved relationship with Lucas and Ford (fostered during the pickups they did to complete the film), and more freedom over his character's development combine to improve his opinion of the role, film, and series.

3. With Luke dying, it would make for a FAR heavier film to see two protagonists die in the last, like, half hour of the movie. Guinness, especially the altered Guinness of this TL, would certainly have a agreed with the decision to reshoot.

You follow?
 
I think that Guiness would do the reshoots, yes. It would Be unprofessional Not to.
He might Be very reluctant to do more than Extended cameos in the following Films. As soon As this becomes apparent, Lucas might find it most convenient to kill the character off....heroically and Not without having told solo where to find another Jedi in hiding...
 
I haven't commented on this in a while, but I'm just bumping this thread in order to express my continuing interest.
 
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