Goering and Churchill KIA in First World War

Hi! We've already had enough "Hitler dies in First World War" threads, so let's try this.

I heard that Goering served in the Luftwaffe in the First World War (I think it was the Luftwaffe). Churchill served as well, on the Western Front.

Suppose both of these men are killed in action, where Goering is shot down (the crash that gets him hooked on morphine kills him instead) and Churchill gets killed on the Western Front by a machine gun instead of some other random guy.

Both Allies and Axis lose an important future leader (and veteran), so it's a little more "even" than if only one of them dies.
 
Hi! We've already had enough "Hitler dies in First World War" threads, so let's try this.

I heard that Goering served in the Luftwaffe in the First World War (I think it was the Luftwaffe). Churchill served as well, on the Western Front.

Suppose both of these men are killed in action, where Goering is shot down (the crash that gets him hooked on morphine kills him instead) and Churchill gets killed on the Western Front by a machine gun instead of some other random guy.

Both Allies and Axis lose an important future leader (and veteran), so it's a little more "even" than if only one of them dies.

Losing Goering might butterfly away the nazi's taking control of the government... he was critical to raising money for the party in all the election cycles prior to Hitler becoming chancellor which made them relavent in the first place

He was able to court industrialists and disaffected officers to join or at least tacitly support the nazi's which was critical in expanding the party's appeal and financial resources

He was also instrumental in the Reichstag and the Prussian government in pulling the strings that would eventually get Hitler into the top spot

The logical thought is that Robert Ritter Von Griem would fill the role of Goering, but he would be lacking in the energy, charisma and political ruthlessness departments compared to fat boy
 
Wasn't Churchill First Sea Lord? I know he got up to some shenanigans but I don't think he "served" on Western Front.
 
Wasn't Churchill First Sea Lord? I know he got up to some shenanigans but I don't think he "served" on Western Front.

OK, suppose the ship he's on is torpedoed. You can also leave Churchill out of it if you want since both men dying is less plausible and focus on Goering.
 
Churchill was First Lord of the Admiralty, but after he resigned he commanded the 6th Royal Scots at Ploegsteert in Belgium from January to May 1916.
 
Wasn't Churchill First Sea Lord? I know he got up to some shenanigans but I don't think he "served" on Western Front.

He did, serving as a Colonel in the Royal Scots Fusiliers. He started out the war as First Lord of the Admiralty, but was demoted after the Liberal government fell (in large part because of the disastrous Gallipoli he championed). He chose to serve on the Western Front largely to rehabilitate his reputation.

I would say his chances of being KIA would were about even. He was a senior officer, but did his best to lead from the front, so getting killed by a stray artillery shell would be a real possibility.

No Churchill does not change much until May 1940. His single-minded focus on the threat of Germany and Hitler didn't have much effect on British politics during the 1930's because it was so unpopular. Chamberlain would probably get deposed by the Conservatives around the same time that he did IOTL, but his successor would be less clear. Even if it was Lord Halifax, I am by no means convinced that he would have quickly cut a deal with the Nazis as soon as he assumed office.
 
Churchill makes a difference in two ways before May 1940.

First, he had the contacts to acquire quite a bit of secret information about rearmament rates, military preparedness, and foreign policy generally, which he used to embarass HMG regularly. This probably made some difference for increased rearmament, marginally more effective foreign policy, etc., especially towards the later stages. Churchill had a real effect at increasing public awareness of these issues also. Perhaps without Churchill the British attitude would have been such that even after Czechoslovakia more temporizing or appeasing expedients would have been tried. Incalculable, really.

Second, I've read in several sources that by becoming the clear public focus of the anti-appeasement Arms and the Covenant league, Churchill unwittingly torpedoed the whole thing by going in strong for Edward in the abdication crisis (and, to a lesser extent, over India). No Churchill might mean an initially less successful movement that actually has more success over the medium term.

No Churchill does not change much until May 1940. His single-minded focus on the threat of Germany and Hitler didn't have much effect on British politics during the 1930's because it was so unpopular. Chamberlain would probably get deposed by the Conservatives around the same time that he did IOTL, but his successor would be less clear. Even if it was Lord Halifax, I am by no means convinced that he would have quickly cut a deal with the Nazis as soon as he assumed office.
 
Just a note, Goering was the last commander of the unit which Richtofen had commanded, so yes he has a reasonable chance of being shot down. But regarding his morphine addiction that came after the war, I can't recall either he crashed a civilian plane or it was due to his being shot during the Munich Putsch

There are loads of other people in line for command of the Luftwaffe in any alternate reality that has Goering KIA, but don't forget that Goering was a heavyweight figure in German politics, and without him the Nazis may well not get enough backing from the establishment to ever enter government

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Deleted member 1487

Just a note, Goering was the last commander of the unit which Richtofen had commanded, so yes he has a reasonable chance of being shot down. But regarding his morphine addiction that came after the war, I can't recall either he crashed a civilian plane or it was due to his being shot during the Munich Putsch

There are loads of other people in line for command of the Luftwaffe in any alternate reality that has Goering KIA, but don't forget that Goering was a heavyweight figure in German politics, and without him the Nazis may well not get enough backing from the establishment to ever enter government

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Shot in the groin during the Putsch. Morphine followed quickly thereafter.
 
Shot in the groin during the Putsch. Morphine followed quickly thereafter.
Death can Follow, Pretty Quickly, too ...

So, How about a Slight Alteration?

Winston Churchill Gets Nailed by a Short Shell, his First Week in The Line, Talk about The Irony ...

And Hermann Goering, has his Balls Shot off by The Bavarian Police!
 
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