Goeben takes refuge in AH ports
- Thread starter Monk78
- Start date
Well the Ottomans were leaning that way anyway. Though maybe without them getting a free BC and SC they would be more hesitant. Maybe this gives the British more opportunity to lessen tensions with the Turks, maybe even getting them to not join the war. And if the Ottomans dont join the war when they do, even if they join later on, then possibly the Greeks dont get involved. Or get involved later on.
With the Goeben not in the Black Sea the balance of power is certainly in Russia's favour with their Pre Dreads such as the Evstafi - and therefore a Russian Lake
OTL Yavuz Sultan Selim obliged the Russian Black Sea Fleet to remain concentrated reducing its options and forcing them to not use their older DDs and all of their Crusiers which were older models
ITTL all their ships would remain useful with no Modern BC and CL in the Turkish fleet
How this impacts the Ottoman empires subsequent decision making or wider events......I don't know but it certainly allows the Russians to dominate the Sea and therefore coast line.
OTL Yavuz Sultan Selim obliged the Russian Black Sea Fleet to remain concentrated reducing its options and forcing them to not use their older DDs and all of their Crusiers which were older models
ITTL all their ships would remain useful with no Modern BC and CL in the Turkish fleet
How this impacts the Ottoman empires subsequent decision making or wider events......I don't know but it certainly allows the Russians to dominate the Sea and therefore coast line.
IMO the perception a the time was correct: Goeben was decisive in bringing Turkey into the war. OTL, Goeben had a major effect on Turkish popular sentiment. And Turkey remained neutral until Enver Pasha had Goeben, now flying the Turkish flag, attack Russian ports.
At the very least, Turkish entry into the war is postponed significantly.
At the very least, Turkish entry into the war is postponed significantly.
Italy has 2-3 in 1914. It built a total of 6 vs 4 for the Austrians in the period, Dante Alighieri, the trio of Cesare's (1914-1915 iirc) and the pair of Duilio's (1915-1916).
No Ottoman entry definitely means a quicker Central Powers collapse.
The Ottomans tied down hundreds of thousands of British and Russian troops, plus countless naval forces and other resources.
If the entire British empire can be stationed on the Western Front and Russia gets 2 more armies in the Eastern Front, Romania is more likely to join earlier, Bulgaria probably stays out, and Germany can't launch a finishing blow in the east because it has to tie down more in the west.
The Ottomans tied down hundreds of thousands of British and Russian troops, plus countless naval forces and other resources.
If the entire British empire can be stationed on the Western Front and Russia gets 2 more armies in the Eastern Front, Romania is more likely to join earlier, Bulgaria probably stays out, and Germany can't launch a finishing blow in the east because it has to tie down more in the west.
MUI is that the Ottoman leadership had already decided to join the Germans, they were just negotiating on what price. Apparently, British Intelligence knew or suspected it. All the British seizure of the 2 dreadnoughts building in Britain was to make it easier to sell the decision to the general public.
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
Assuming this is true:
And this is also true:
And this is also true:
The Russians perhaps launch Bosporus amphibious campaign simultaneous with the western Gallipolli campaign?
Apparently, the Russians were supposed to do exactly that, but could never quite co-ordinate the troops and the shipping.
Was their fleet strong enough to transfer a force across the Black Sea and support it by shore bombardment?
Without Goeben and Breslau the next best thing the Ottomans can throw at the Russians is a pair of outdated protected cruisers a quartet of modernish destroyers and a barely floating pre-dreadnought. Protecting the convoys at sea shouldn't be a huge problem, though keeping BB's on station is likely harder.
Yes in terms of fighting power the Black Sea Fleet was both powerful and well led. Even before it commissioned the Imperatritsa Maria class Dreadnoughts it's predreadnoughts of the Ievstafi class had made Goeben run on at least one occasion through the use of surprisingly long ranged and accurate gunfire. Its older predreadnoughts such as Rostislav had been engaged in coastal bombardment of ports and coal mines and its cruisers had been interdicting coastal traffic betwwen trabzon and Constantinople.
No Goeben reduces the Turkish fleet to one decentish protected cruiser (Hamidieh), two elderly German predreadnoughts and a handful of gunboats and small destroyers. This is in no way a credible threat. Russian forces could therefore range at will along the Turkish coast.
What I am less clear on is their amphibious capabilities at scale. The Black Sea Fleet certainly pioneered some dedicated landing craft including Russud and Elpidifor classes so it is quite possible without any credible naval opposition that this would have been expanded and the ability to conduct landings become a thing. For some good pics of the latter see 'The Russian Fleet 1914-1917' by Rene Greger
The A-H Navy expected that Goeben would operate with them. While they initially shied at supporting the German Squadron outside the Adriatic as 'too far away' they did sortie when ordered but they only found out later that it had been a feint. Adm Haus angrily turned about and headed back to Pola when the Germans suggested that the Austrian-Hungarian Fleet should continue to Constantinople.
The Russians lacked the shipping within the Black Sea to land and support a force large enough to take and hold Constantinople. There pre-war plans were to have the shipping available by 1917 if a General European War broke out.
The British apparently had intelligence that the Turks had signed an alliance with the Germans and that the Turkish Dreadnoughts were to be sailed across the North Sea to join the HSF. This is part of the reason why they were seized.
The Russians lacked the shipping within the Black Sea to land and support a force large enough to take and hold Constantinople. There pre-war plans were to have the shipping available by 1917 if a General European War broke out.
The British apparently had intelligence that the Turks had signed an alliance with the Germans and that the Turkish Dreadnoughts were to be sailed across the North Sea to join the HSF. This is part of the reason why they were seized.
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Deleted member 2186
Could she become a prize for the Royal Yugoslav Navy to come and in turn will end up being sunk the the Germans during the invasion of Yugoslavia.