Go North, Young Man: The Great Canada

[TheMann]

One thing's for sure, Grenada isn't likely going to get invaded ITTL, and I'm quite sure any Communist movements would be taken down quite quickly.

Correct. Communism in Asia is pretty much entirely limited to Cuba. America's more considerate stance, Canada next door and better economic development in both directions has all but eradicated Communist support and sympathy. Anybody trying to invade Grenada in this world would find out what the Royal Canadian Navy thinks of that idea in very. very short order....

 

[Lost Freeway]

Correct. Communism in Asia is pretty much entirely limited to Cuba

Since when was Cuba in Asia?

 

[TheCoolCucumber]

What are the air wings for Canada's aircraft carriers? Is it the same as the U.Ks or a mixture of British and American aircraft?

 

[Lost Freeway]

What are the air wings for Canada's aircraft carriers? Is it the same as the U.Ks or a mixture of British and American aircraft?

My bet is on the latter.

 

[Diez Mil Cantos]

Besides Grenada, what was the 80's like in the Caribbean Provinces? And in the First Nations? Any possibility of a Nunavut territory forming?

 

[Lost Freeway]

Besides Grenada, what was the 80's like in the Caribbean Provinces? And in the First Nations? Any possibility of a Nunavut territory forming?

Eh, I'd guess things would be pretty peaceful. And the formation of Nunavut forming seems pretty likely.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Its taken me a bit to get caught up, but you're mention of CCF Metroliner's got me interested... Are you picturing the Ontario electrifications as OTL's lines to London, Kitchener and Niagara being electrified or the almost inevitable (were any of it built) evolution of Beck's Ontario Hydro lines into virtual mainlines? There's definitely some interesting implications if this electric service is less CN mainline and more the descendants of Ontario Hydro and various bits of radials (and it does seem the logical conclusion given the opening date you mentioned for a Toronto Subway and the lack of electrification of Toronto/Montreal services). For that matter, if they are more or less radials, did the Grand River Railway stick around in some form? Same question applies out west as well I guess, though things are a bit more fundamentally different out there it does sort of sound like this might have more in common with BC Hydro than CN and the Hill lines (on which note).

On only semi-related notes, just what did happen with James Hill and Bill Boeing TTL? Also, in regards to the Canadair CL-55, is this more or less a BAC 1-11, a descendant of the Jetliner or something new? Even OTL's 1-11 seems like a major player with earlier stretches and serious production capability...

Also, no mention of SSNs? Seems odd for a nuclear armed RCN with nuclear carriers (plural!) not to have proper under-ice capabilities (Threshers instead of Oberon's maybe)?

Loving this BTW.

 

[TheMann]

Its taken me a bit to get caught up, but you're mention of CCF Metroliner's got me interested... Are you picturing the Ontario electrifications as OTL's lines to London, Kitchener and Niagara being electrified or the almost inevitable (were any of it built) evolution of Beck's Ontario Hydro lines into virtual mainlines? There's definitely some interesting implications if this electric service is less CN mainline and more the descendants of Ontario Hydro and various bits of radials (and it does seem the logical conclusion given the opening date you mentioned for a Toronto Subway and the lack of electrification of Toronto/Montreal services). For that matter, if they are more or less radials, did the Grand River Railway stick around in some form? Same question applies out west as well I guess, though things are a bit more fundamentally different out there it does sort of sound like this might have more in common with BC Hydro than CN and the Hill lines (on which note).

On only semi-related notes, just what did happen with James Hill and Bill Boeing TTL? Also, in regards to the Canadair CL-55, is this more or less a BAC 1-11, a descendant of the Jetliner or something new? Even OTL's 1-11 seems like a major player with earlier stretches and serious production capability...

Also, no mention of SSNs? Seems odd for a nuclear armed RCN with nuclear carriers (plural!) not to have proper under-ice capabilities (Threshers instead of Oberon's maybe)?

Loving this BTW.

The electrification service isn't Beck's Ontario Hydro lines, as in this world he was focused on building a greater hydroelectric system for the province. The electrification of CN lines in Ontario began in the 1930s with the main lines (particularly the Toronto-Montreal lines, which was electric-operated from Toronto to Montreal starting in 1933), and spread from there. Most rural lines (of which a great many remain ITTL, serving farms, grain elevators, industrial firms or some combination of all of the above) today are still diesel-operated, aside from ones near power stations and major power conduits, which in many cases run near or even right above the tracks. The busiest freight-rail lines in Ontario are the twin CN and CP mains from Toronto to Sudbury, which (as with the lines from Toronto to Detroit and all the way out to Halifax) are electrified. CPR runs electrics on its routes from its yards in Pickering and Brampton (It's OTL West Toronto Yard is today owned by GO Transit and its Scarborough Yard was ITTL built further east in Pickering) and out to Montreal.

Beck's master works in the country aside from the Ontario Hydro system itself was the building of the first Toronto and Montreal Subways, the genesis of which began under Beck's watch.

The Grand River Railway was integrated into CPR in the 1930s as IOTL, but a combination of decreasing freight traffic and growing population in the region saw it reborn as a commuter rail service in 1970. Electrified and equipped with electric multiple units (initially license-built Budd/Canadian Rail Car M2s) in the 1970s, today the GRR runs from Elmira to Brantford and is a major portion of the region's mass transit system. The single-deck M2s were replaced by Bombardier Regional T2s (which are nearly identical to Dutch VIRMs) in the 1990s, similar to what is used on electrified services in Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg and Ottawa.

Both CNR and CPR are the two largest users of electric locomotives in the Americas, accepting the higher construction and maintenance costs of the lines for much lower fuel costs. CNR is still a crown corporation and CPR is here a company which is a worldwide empire, and both have little difficulty getting construction money for bugger all in interest, and one result is that GE Transportation Systems along with GM Electro-Motive and American Locomotive Company (which is here owned by Chrysler Corporation, joined at the hip with Alstom and Cummins and the Montreal Locomotive Works is today the Alco Canadian Motive Power Works) are all major builders of locomotives in Canada, and heavy freight electrics have long been proven on Canadian rails. In Canada, nearly everywhere there is either mountains, hydroelectric power or both, you'll find CNR and CPR operating heavy electrics, and CPR's ex-Milwaukee Road Northern America Division and large portions of its ex-Gulf, Mobile and Ohio Mississippi Valley Division are also electrified, as is CN's ex-Central Vermont and New Haven New England Division, which runs from Montreal and Sherbrooke to Boston and New York. GE E33, E44 and E60 electrics along with their EMD GM10B and GF6C counterparts, along with some Alco-Alstom Millenium EP2A and Millenium EP3C heavy freight engines, were the backbone of heavy-freight electric operations in the late-1970s through early to mid-2000s, whereas newer locomotives equipped with better electronic controls replaced many of them. Most Canadian electrified railroad systems use 25 kV/60 Hz power systems, except in the Rockies west of Calgary and Edmonton, Newfoundland and CN's New England Division and Manitoba Division, which use 50 kV/60 Hz. Most of the Prairies divisions and Ontario divisions west of Sault Ste. Marie, as well as east of Sherbrooke and Quebec City and CN's Northland Divisions (which run to Fort McMurray, Alberta, Yellowknife, Northwest Territories and the line from Churchill, Manitoba to the Michael Cameron Mine and Repulse Bay in Nunavut) are diesel-operated.

James Hill's fate is pretty much exactly the same as OTL, but he remained a part of the CPR for the rest of his life and the CPR was a key investor from very early on in the Hill railroad lines, an interest which remained until the late 1960s when the United States' Interstate Commerce Commission forced the CPR to sell off its interest in the Hill Lines as a condition of the Burlington Northern merger. CPR wasn't real happy about that but the sell-off made them a fortune, and they plowed that fortune into the Milwaukee Road, which became the CPR's Northern America Division, and the improving of the former Milwaukee's position in the Northern US. The building of connections to Western Canada and into the Powder River Basin coalfields in the 1970s along with down to Portland (and a soon-to-be-very-busy interchange with Southern Pacific) and rebuilding the entire route gave CPR a great position, and while CPR and Burlington Northern today have cordial relations, they remain fierce competitors.

Here, Bill Boeing came to British Columbia for the same purpose as OTL, but instead he established his airplane company in Portland rather than Seattle. Boeing's Air Mail operations rapidly gained traction on both sides of the border, and Boeing was one of the pioneers who recognized Canada's potential as a partner to the United States. Boeing's fate is largely as OTL, but their operations were established in Portland rather than Seattle for American operations, but they began operations in Seattle in 1926, and Boeing soon had two major plants built. After antitrust legislation forced the breakup of Boeing Group in 1935, the airline and principal air mail operations stayed south but the airplane factories stayed in Seattle. The American plants were re-opened before WWII, and Boeing airliners ITTL come out of Portland rather than Seattle, but all Commonwealth Boeing orders and a huge number of parts (as well as all 737s after 1989) come out of the facilities in Seattle. United Airlines of Canada also came out of the breakup of the Boeing Group, and was one of the principal components of Canadian Airlines upon its formation in 1976. Bill Boeing here became a dual citizen after WWII and lived long enough to see the Boeing 707 fly, dying in 1960 as a result of a heart attack on his yacht, and Boeing made sure that his company and Canada always had good relations, even if Canada's aerospace industry was focused at the time on Avro Canada and Canadair. It is well known that Bill Boeing was able to see the Avro Arrow before it saw service, and is reported to have said "this is why our world is in good hands, when good men can create aircraft like this."

When Canada's National Museum of Civilization opened in Ottawa in April 1967, the Museum's Hall of Builders included James Hill and his partners in the CPR, and William Boeing was added to the Hall in 1991.

The BAC One-Eleven here never existed, just as British Aircraft Corporation never did - Bristol merged with Hawker Siddeley to make a better Trident and Vickers bought English Electric's aerospace interests in 1959 and absorbed Huntley as it was failing in 1961. The Canadair Metroliner is similar in look to the Boeing 737 in fuselage look but rather different in many respects, with the engines further out on pylons, and a highly-swept tail with dihedral tailplanes in a similar design to the Handley Page Victor, as well as having bigger wings. The Canadair Metroliner became the de facto Commonwealth rival to the Boeing 737, along with the Vickers VC-10 and VC-12 and Hawker Siddeley Trident, and while the Commonwealth never built a 747 rival, the Commonwealth airliners proved every bit as good as their American rivals. Rolls-Royce Orenda makes capable engines, and one advantage for the engine builder is that, unlike Pratt and Whitney and General Electric, they commonly license-out production of components and sometimes whole engines out to their Commonwealth divisions, making on-site maintenance and upgrading easier. Later Metroliners were built with different engine mountings to allow larger engines, and like the Boeing 737, ever-larger versions of the Metroliner were built to satisfy customer demands.

I'm not sure what quite to do about earlier Canadian SSNs. Valiant and Churchill class boats are out of the question because Canada will want to use their own nuclear reactors. Swiftsure-class vessels are probably an option but they would require extensive re-engineering and the cost would be high considerably the new carriers and surface fleet Canada built in the 1960s. I had thought that the Trafalgars would be built as British-Canadian designs with British weapons systems and designs, but with Canadian heavy-water reactors and under-ice capability.

 

[TheMann]

What are the air wings for Canada's aircraft carriers? Is it the same as the U.Ks or a mixture of British and American aircraft?

My bet is on the latter.

Lost Freeway is correct. The RCN's Fleet Air Arm in 1980 uses the F-4K Spey Phantom for fleet air defense, Blackburn Buccaneer S.3 for maritime and land strike (a Canadian-improved S.2, meant for the carriage of anti-ship weapons, which also had addition hardpoints), the A-7F Corsair II for attack purposes and close-air support (all Canadian A-7s are two-seaters with the same Spey engines as the Phantoms), E-2 Hawkeyes for AWACS, S-2 Trackers for anti-submarine warfare and Westland Sea King helicopters for ASW, search and rescue and utility purposes.

The Spey Phantoms were replaced starting in 1984 by the F-14 Tomcat, the Panavia Tornado replaced the Buccaneer starting in 1988 and the F/A-18F Super Hornet replaced the A-7 starting in 2001. The Tomcat would go on to a Canadian institution, the Canadians proving plenty willing to continually upgrade their warhorse even after the United States passed on upgrades for it, as well as Canada and Britain ensuring the Tornado was made carrier-capable. Canadian Tomcats were equipped with ground-attack abilities from the early 1990s, and as the Canadian carriers went through complex overhauls in the mid-1990s, their F-14s went into the shop for rebuilding into CF-184E versions, which were similar to the Grumman Attack Super Tomcat 21 design. The Tornado replaced the aging Buccaneer starting in 1988 with the last Buccaneer retired in 1991, and carrier-capable Tornados use the most powerful RB199 engines made for additional takeoff capability. Many Canadian A-7s were ex-USN units that were modified by the Canadians after the Vietnam war, but the Super Hornet replaced them as they reached the end of their useful lives in the early 2000s.

Canada passed on the S-3 Viking, considering it not enough of an improvement on the S-2 Tracker, while the Canadian CL-84 Dynavert ultimately became the base for the VS-145 Poseidon and CA-200 Vampire tilt-wing aircraft, the Poseidon in a carrier-borne ASW role and the CA-200 entering service in a land-based attack role, the latter, effectively a CA-200 airframe with AH-1J weapons systems seeing combat for the first time with the Royal Marines in the Falklands War, where four CA-200As were devastatingly effective against the Argentine Army on the Falklands using CRV7 rockets, Maverick missiles and machine guns both on the aircraft and pods. The VS-145A replaced the Tracker between 1984 and 1986, while the CA-200A joined the Canadian Army's air units in Germany in 1983. The VS-145 proved too large for Canadian fleet escorts until the Province-class cruisers of the 2000s, while the success of the Poseidon and Vampire was instrumental in Canada buying into the V-22 Osprey project, which entered Canadian service in 1997.

 

[Some Bloke]

So what do the RN Carrier airwings look like?

 

[FgenLuke]

A new Canadawank?

You're a man after my heart, TheMann.

Seriously though, I'm extremely excited to see where things go this time around. The early POD should allow for pretty interesting stories.

This question maybe a bit early, but what can we expect of Canada's contributions to early space programs/travel? What sort of participation can we expect pre-ISS? It would be nice if we had our own module as well (on the ISS), not that CanadArm isn't cool enough as it is.

 

[TheCoolCucumber]

This question maybe a bit early, but what can we expect of Canada's contributions to early space programs/travel? What sort of participation can we expect pre-ISS? It would be nice if we had our own module as well (on the ISS), not that CanadArm isn't cool enough as it is.

I have been thinking about this myself. Canada might actually be able to build something on one of its Caribbean islands due to there location near the equator. If Canada does get involved in space flight I suspect it would only be unmanned unless they build either something like the shuttle or a SSTO vehicle.

 

[1965 Timelord]

The RCN SSKs could be (probably during the first post-war decade) the converted Gato and the domestic version of the Orca class similar to the UK design or did the RCN used the GUPPY designs? As for the USN response to a completely purpose-built SSK would be Tang class, the RCN's OTL response would be Porpoise-class or Oberon-class but I think the ITTL response would be to investigate the USS Albacore (AGSS-569) and I-201-class and/or use the File:November_class_SSN_627_project.svg plus File:November_class_SSN_627A_project.svg using the Applications of the Stirling engine and later, http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/NB_02.pdf for 1st generation SSN class using the existing SSK hull designs.

 

[TheMann]

So what do the RN Carrier airwings look like?

Pretty similar to the Canadian carriers - Spey Phantoms for fighter roles, Blackburn Buccaneers for strike duties, Hawker Siddeley Sea Harrier for close-air-support duties, Fairey Gannet for ASW jobs, E-2 Hawkeye for AWACS duties and Sea King helicopters for utility and SAR missions. The Gannet was replaced by the S-3 Viking in the late 1970s, the Phantom by the F-14 Tomcat (RN and RCN F-14s, true to the usual form, used RR-Orenda engines, and RN and RAF Tomcats were license-built by Hawker Siddeley in the UK) in the early 1980s and the Panavia Tornado replaced the Buccaneer in the late 80s. The Sea Harrier went through plenty of rebuilds and upgrades along the way as well.

A new Canadawank?

You're a man after my heart, TheMann.

Heh heh heh, I had to do something a little different to my previous wanks, so I started way earlier.

This is a true no-apocalypse-in-this-universe Superpower Canada, with bombers, aircraft carriers, a quite sizable land army, domestic arms industries and nuclear weapons mounted on cruise missiles. (It just seems to me like nuclear-armed standoff cruise missiles seem more up Canada's alley than ICBMs or SSBNs.) This Canada by TTL's modern day has a population of 80-85 million, pretty much has the Caribbean as its home lake along with the Great Lakes, is truly culturally and ethnically diverse (though some things are shared among everyone....) and prosperous to a point almost beyond meaning - a total GDP bigger than Germany, and trillions in the bank in the federal and provincial funds (which also makes a number of companies not based in Canada (including General Motors, General Electric, Boeing, Rolls-Royce Orenda, Royal Dutch Shell, Archer Daniels Midland and Continental, among others, pay attention to the demands of stock holders in various levels of Canadian government, which usually means keeping operations in Canada), a highly-valued currency and an infrastructure which is rather overbuilt but which reduces pollution, makes travel for business or pleasure easy. Canadians have one of the world's highest standards of living, and one of the world's most-successful education systems and a very-highly-advanced healthcare system works to keep it that way.

Seriously though, I'm extremely excited to see where things go this time around. The early POD should allow for pretty interesting stories.

Lots of good ones already. Here, politically, Canada is left of center but believes in efficient government. The debate is almost never about the size of government but its success rate - civil services are judged by customer satisfaction, education systems by the students they turn out (and very little standardized testing here, avoiding situations where teachers teach to the test), police both by crime rates and by community relations, healthcare systems by the rates not just of death and illness but also in wellness in general. The Conservatives believe in stronger major institutions (particularly armed forces, police services, larger government agencies and the like), while the NDP aims to bring services to a more human scale, less about efficiency and more individual touches, with the Liberals somewhere in the middle. All parties, however, are quite rigid in their support of the front-line members of the armed forces and police services (who are better paid in Canada than just about anywhere else in the world at all levels, and paid better than many members of society, which shows in the quality of those members as well as their training and esprit de corps) and all are avowedly anti-discrimination (being racist or homophobic in Canadian politics ITTL is a political death sentence).

Canada's society is pretty much a wide mix of different societies sharing common values. Bilingualism is almost universal among adults, Native Canadian groups are both politically powerful and in modern times are dedicated to the advancement of their peoples both economically and socially, and the latter manifests itself most often with the greater promotion of elements of native cultures into Canadian society as a whole. Quebec Separatism here is completely dead - Quebec was plenty happy to sign the 1972 Canadian Constitution - and Quebec's government, society and many elements of its private sector make the world know about French Canadian culture and promote the French language as much as France itself does. To many Canadians, Montreal means French as much as Paris does, and Montrealers are proud of that. Toronto is the always-busy commercial capital, Vancouver and Seattle the glittering Pacific gateways, Montreal the vibrant center of French-Canadian culture and commerce, Halifax the Atlantic gateway connected to the ocean in front of it, Ottawa the city that is the center of Canada's tech industries as well as its government, with the vast government buildings - Parliament Hill, Supreme Court, Sir Issac Brock Complex (the complex that houses the Department of National Defense), the Various governmental department buildings of Bank Street (with the 38-story Canadian Ministry of International Trade and Industry, the city's tallest building, at the south end of the Bank Street row), the great museums (particularly the Museum of Civilization Complex, whose seven buildings which straddle the Ottawa River between Hull and Ottawa is easily Canada's greatest modern museum and the city's largest tourist attraction by a considerable margin), the CBC's avant-garde Ottawa HQ and the massive number of embassies - occupy the center of the city while the tech industries are based outside of the city center.

Canadians come from vastly diverse backgrounds, but the shared values and pastimes are pretty much unassailable, and the entry of the Caribbean into Canada only shifted the goalposts somewhat. Hockey in winter and football (of either the association or gridiron type) in the summer, exploring the outdoors, seeing family on weekends and the love of culture in evenings - whether its concerts, movies, performing arts or public events such as sports events - is pretty much part of the life. Vast numbers of Canadians travel to the Caribbean to enjoy the weather, and more than a few go the other way in summer. Good food is also part of the life - Montreal smoked meat and Montreal-style bagels, smoked salmon, Hogtown sausage, back bacon, prairie steak, poutine, jerk chicken, donairs, Newfie fish, maple syrup and good coffee is everywhere.

Police services in Canada, particularly the almost-mythical RCMP, have the utmost respect of the populations they serve, and they work hard to keep it that way, both in doing their jobs, keeping relations with the community as good as possible and the services' total lack of tolerance for misconduct and treatment of their force's image as more important than their individual work.

This question maybe a bit early, but what can we expect of Canada's contributions to early space programs/travel? What sort of participation can we expect pre-ISS? It would be nice if we had our own module as well (on the ISS), not that CanadArm isn't cool enough as it is.

I was thinking Canada would definitely want to be in on the ISS, and one idea I did have is that Canada is going to have rather a problem with the Soufrière Hills volcano once its eruption begins in 1995, and one idea I had was to one the volcanic eruption has stopped use of the island for a launch station might be a good idea, but that's gonna be at least 2017, because of course, the bloody volcano doesn't really wanna stop. Once that starts, launching closer to the equator would be something everyone would appreciate, and it could be a major Canadian contribution to space travel.

As far as a Canadian module, I was thinking Canada might build one of the modules that got cancelled IOTL, perhaps the centrifuge module could be a Canadian piece of the ISS.

I have been thinking about this myself. Canada might actually be able to build something on one of its Caribbean islands due to there location near the equator. If Canada does get involved in space flight I suspect it would only be unmanned unless they build either something like the shuttle or a SSTO vehicle.

See above.

 

[Ming777]

Maybe they also make the habitation module that would allow earlier crews of six on the ISS than in OTL.

 

[TimTurner]

With glowing hearts we see thee rise a true North strong and free!

 

[Lost Freeway]

This is a true no-apocalypse-in-this-universe Superpower Canada, with bombers, aircraft carriers, a quite sizable land army, domestic arms industries and nuclear weapons mounted on cruise missiles. (It just seems to me like nuclear-armed standoff cruise missiles seem more up Canada's alley than ICBMs or SSBNs.) This Canada by TTL's modern day has a population of 80-85 million, pretty much has the Caribbean as its home lake along with the Great Lakes, is truly culturally and ethnically diverse (though some things are shared among everyone....) and prosperous to a point almost beyond meaning - a total GDP bigger than Germany, and trillions in the bank in the federal and provincial funds (which also makes a number of companies not based in Canada (including General Motors, General Electric, Boeing, Rolls-Royce Orenda, Royal Dutch Shell, Archer Daniels Midland and Continental, among others, pay attention to the demands of stock holders in various levels of Canadian government, which usually means keeping operations in Canada), a highly-valued currency and an infrastructure which is rather overbuilt but which reduces pollution, makes travel for business or pleasure easy. Canadians have one of the world's highest standards of living, and one of the world's most-successful education systems and a very-highly-advanced healthcare system works to keep it that way.

 

[TheMann]

Maybe they also make the habitation module that would allow earlier crews of six on the ISS than in OTL.

That was an idea. I also had the idea of a Canadarm and a maintenance module for the ISS to allow those on the station to make repairs on their own if it is necessary. I don't think Canada has the resources to make their own spacecraft big enough to lift pieces for the ISS (at least not until the future, hint, hint....) but they certainly can pay for a shuttle flight, and this Canada most certainly has launched satellites for both civilian and military purposes.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise a true North strong and free!

It gets better than that, even. How you will soon see, but you can be assured its going to be huge and spectacular.

 

[Lost Freeway]

It gets better than that, even. How you will soon see, but you can be assured its going to be huge and spectacular.

I can hardly wait.

 

[Ming777]

Another thing that may have changed is how the Civil Right Movement in the States progressed. Civil Rights Leaders might point out how much better people of colour are treated north of the Border, including Montreal's welcome and support of Jackie Robinson during his time with the Montreal Royals, how well the predominantly black Carribean Provinces are treated and invested in after joining Confederation.