Go North, Young Man: The Great Canada
- Thread starter TheMann
- Start date
It has a synthetic handguard rather than a wooden one, but other than that yes the look is similar. It's longer than the Tavor, too.
Economically, it began happening in the 1930s and accelerated in the 1950s, but it really kicked into gear after the death of Maurice Duplessis in 1959 and the collapse of the Church-controlled education system in Quebec in the 1960s. Quebec will lag behind the other provinces in terms of education until the 1980s, but Quebec goes through a period of massive modernization in the 1960s. No independence movement here, though.
Not yet, will be by the mid-1960s. The apartheid system is looked upon with disdain by the Commonwealth, and by the 1970s the four most prominent Commonwealth nations - Britain, Canada, Australia and India - will all want nothing to do with South Africa, and Washington won't be that far behind. None of the Commonwealth are gonna go so far as to fund the ANC (they are engaged in armed resistance, after all) but they will be isolating South Africa from the world. The Commonwealth is anti-communist, but they will still desire to have apartheid end as calmly and rapidly as possible.
France is indeed going to create the International Organisation of La Francophonie in 1970 as IOTL, but Paris in this world is well aware of the fact that the situation with their colonies is rather different than the British. France never had "white dominions" as Britain did, and while the organization will be aimed at the French-speaking regions associated with France, it won't be an organization with real influence until political changes in the world in the 1980s. France has been an observer of the Commonwealth since 1958, and has considered joining for real on several occasions. What is going to kick-start the changes for the Francophonie is political changes in the Middle East and Africa in the 1970s, but that's the next chapter.
Here, one can travel between the 'Central Commonwealth' countries - Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Ireland as well as after 1964 Malta, Singapore and Hong Kong - without visas and stay for any length of time so long as one follows local laws, and for people in many other Commonwealth nations (including India), getting a 'Commonwealth Visa' that gives you the same rights is not particularly difficult. This has resulted in more than a few citizens of Commonwealth nations living in other nations, and has contributed to economic growth and some social changes in all of the nations. India is beginning a major growth spurt in the late 1960s (and this will accelerate markedly once the License Raj begins being dismantled in the mid-to-late 1970s) and the Commonwealth wants to be (and will be) a central part of that. Canadian and Australian money will push a major restructuring of British heavy industry in the 1960s and 1970s (British Leyland ends up being directed from Toronto and Melbourne, for example), and as one has undoubtedly gleamed from the much-more-advanced state of Commonwealth aerospace concerns here, there will be industries which effectively crumbled in our world that here simply won't.
What's the difference between the Commonwealth and the Empire?
Britain used to run the Empire, now the Commonwealth runs Britain. :-D
Britain used to run the Empire, now the Commonwealth runs Britain. :-D
Ming777
Monthly Donor
I think British Leyland will needs to drastic changes from becoming the makers of such cars as the Morris Marina, the Austin Allegro, and the Triumph Stag. Canadian-style Welfare Capitalism might help reduce the influence of Communists in British Unions, and avoid the massive strikes that plagued the UK during the 70s and 80s.
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A common joke in 1970s Britain, though one some Brits don't exactly like very much.
Regardless, Canuck, Aussie and Kiwi dollars will keep a lot of British workers employed, and Canadian oil, steel, food and minerals will be sold to Brits as well. BL here is gonna be the unmanageable behemoth of OTL, but a bunch of Canadian and Australian investors were involved with Leyland before the merger and as such stay with BL, but after Britain goes to nationalize it those investors are displeased to say the least - but BL's workforce causes such an issue that the company is ultimately split in two, with the Canadian and Australian divisions of Leyland taking over Land Rover, Jaguar, Mini and Triumph to get them out of the way in the mid-1970s, figuring those divisions wouldn't be able to make them any real money and reduce their losses. That ends up not working out - Leyland ends up a profitable company as Triumph becomes a British BMW in the 1980s and Jaguars return to their former status and status symbols, while Austin Rover flounders around until an American management group takes it over in the early 1980s and leads it on something of a revival based on everyday cars with sporty feel and plenty of racing success at both professional and club levels. (Think what Mazda does today and you get the idea.) The result is a rather smaller industry but by no means a dead one, and by the 1990s things are rather looking up for the British auto industry.
Are there any native Canadian automotive companies? I'm just kind of disappointed that even this timeline's Super Canada still has to depend on foreign car companies.
Will Canada eventually overshadow Britain on the world stage considering its vast natural resources and it greater population in TTL?
I'm sure the airplane nuts here have noticed that this TL does include Britain not making the mistake of passing the airliner market to Boeing and Douglas, so I should probably explain the world of that here beyond the VC-7.
The VC-7 and it's successor, the VC-10, prove to popular aircraft because compared to the 707 and DC-8 they fly nicer and have greater life due to larger wings and having the engines embedded in the wings as opposed to on pylons. The metal fatigue problems that initially plagued the De Havilland Comet were avoided as a result of lessons learned. The 707 proves the most popular airplane for the United States and many allies, but the Commonwealth nations most frequently use the VC-7, and the VC-10, which initially comes in higher-powered versions for hot and high airports like Bombay, Nairobi and Kingston and larger models for higher-capaciry routes. Vickers wisely also doesn't object to licensing the design to qualified builders, which results in most Canadian VC-7 and VC-10 models being made by Canadair and using Rolls-Royce engines licensed built by Orenda. This arrangement also results in the Canadair airlines serving ever greater numbers of markets.
Recognizing that not every market needed an airplane as large as the VC-7 and VC-10 (or the 707), Canadair and De Havilland Canada both work on smaller airplanes in the late 1950s and unto the early 1960s, the former developing the Canadair CL-55 'Metroliner', a twin-engine short-haul airliner meant for roughly 90-120 passengers using RR Conway engines which would soon be competing with the Boeing 737 and Douglas DC-9. The Metroliner wasn't the massive hit of the 737 or DC-9 but would end up selling over 1,900 units between 1964 and 1981 and becoming for years the backbone of many short-haul airlines in the Commonwealth - and to the surprise of no-one, Vickers produced the CL-55 under license, with similar size but longer flight demands filled by the Hawker Siddeley Trident.
De Havilland Canada's contribution to the growing world of Canadian aerospace technology was the Dash series of turboprops, which began with the 19-passenger DHC-6 Twin Otter in 1962 and developed into the 45 passenger Dash 7 in 1968. The Dash 7 was a four-engine aircraft capable, like the DHC-6 before it, was a STOL bird capable of astounding rates of climb and landing in incredibly short distances, along with using runways other turboprop aircraft couldn't use. It was a wise idea in many places, and the De Havilland Canada aircraft didn't take long time be a common sight in the world, serving areas that many other such aircraft couldn't reach. The developments of the Dash-7 would contribute to the development of the Dash-8, which would make a far bigger mark on the industry than the Dash-7 had after its 1979 introduction.
Vickers was not blind the obvious, and Air travels dramatic growth in the 1960s left even large airplanes like the VC-7 and VC-10 wanting for capacity, and range was becoming an issue as well for many of Vickers' customers, including British Airways, Air Canada, Lufthansa and Qantas. By the time Pan Am and Boeing stunned the world by announcing the 747 in 1966, Vickers was already at work on a 250-passenger airliner, but the 747 set off a boutique in Britain, demanding to not get left behind by the American 'jumbo jet'. Vickers, wisely, stuck to its original plan but modified some to allow for a 275 passenger capacity, figuring that the monster 747 would be made obsolete by supersonic airliners. The Vickers VC-12 proved to have a tricky development (not helped by the problems with the Rolls-Royce RB211 engines designed for it), but it proved a highly capable airplane when it entered British Airways service in 1970. The 747, VC-12 and two competing trijets all entered service within a year of each other, though as good as the VC-12 was (and stretched versions were on the board from day one), many airlines still would up buying 747s. This was no real loss to Vickers though, as the VC-12 comfortably outsold the Lockheed TriStar and the McDonnell Douglas DC-10, with 848 delivered between 1970 and 1986.
The VC-7 and it's successor, the VC-10, prove to popular aircraft because compared to the 707 and DC-8 they fly nicer and have greater life due to larger wings and having the engines embedded in the wings as opposed to on pylons. The metal fatigue problems that initially plagued the De Havilland Comet were avoided as a result of lessons learned. The 707 proves the most popular airplane for the United States and many allies, but the Commonwealth nations most frequently use the VC-7, and the VC-10, which initially comes in higher-powered versions for hot and high airports like Bombay, Nairobi and Kingston and larger models for higher-capaciry routes. Vickers wisely also doesn't object to licensing the design to qualified builders, which results in most Canadian VC-7 and VC-10 models being made by Canadair and using Rolls-Royce engines licensed built by Orenda. This arrangement also results in the Canadair airlines serving ever greater numbers of markets.
Recognizing that not every market needed an airplane as large as the VC-7 and VC-10 (or the 707), Canadair and De Havilland Canada both work on smaller airplanes in the late 1950s and unto the early 1960s, the former developing the Canadair CL-55 'Metroliner', a twin-engine short-haul airliner meant for roughly 90-120 passengers using RR Conway engines which would soon be competing with the Boeing 737 and Douglas DC-9. The Metroliner wasn't the massive hit of the 737 or DC-9 but would end up selling over 1,900 units between 1964 and 1981 and becoming for years the backbone of many short-haul airlines in the Commonwealth - and to the surprise of no-one, Vickers produced the CL-55 under license, with similar size but longer flight demands filled by the Hawker Siddeley Trident.
De Havilland Canada's contribution to the growing world of Canadian aerospace technology was the Dash series of turboprops, which began with the 19-passenger DHC-6 Twin Otter in 1962 and developed into the 45 passenger Dash 7 in 1968. The Dash 7 was a four-engine aircraft capable, like the DHC-6 before it, was a STOL bird capable of astounding rates of climb and landing in incredibly short distances, along with using runways other turboprop aircraft couldn't use. It was a wise idea in many places, and the De Havilland Canada aircraft didn't take long time be a common sight in the world, serving areas that many other such aircraft couldn't reach. The developments of the Dash-7 would contribute to the development of the Dash-8, which would make a far bigger mark on the industry than the Dash-7 had after its 1979 introduction.
Vickers was not blind the obvious, and Air travels dramatic growth in the 1960s left even large airplanes like the VC-7 and VC-10 wanting for capacity, and range was becoming an issue as well for many of Vickers' customers, including British Airways, Air Canada, Lufthansa and Qantas. By the time Pan Am and Boeing stunned the world by announcing the 747 in 1966, Vickers was already at work on a 250-passenger airliner, but the 747 set off a boutique in Britain, demanding to not get left behind by the American 'jumbo jet'. Vickers, wisely, stuck to its original plan but modified some to allow for a 275 passenger capacity, figuring that the monster 747 would be made obsolete by supersonic airliners. The Vickers VC-12 proved to have a tricky development (not helped by the problems with the Rolls-Royce RB211 engines designed for it), but it proved a highly capable airplane when it entered British Airways service in 1970. The 747, VC-12 and two competing trijets all entered service within a year of each other, though as good as the VC-12 was (and stretched versions were on the board from day one), many airlines still would up buying 747s. This was no real loss to Vickers though, as the VC-12 comfortably outsold the Lockheed TriStar and the McDonnell Douglas DC-10, with 848 delivered between 1970 and 1986.
There is one Canadian homegrown carmaker (Westland-Reynard) and another will appear in the 1980s. The biggest problem Canadian automakers have is that Canada isn't big enough for a lot of carmakers and has to export, but the United States and Commonwealth nations are doing the same thing. Makes things a little more tricky.
To some extent yes, but the two countries will always be close, which mitigates some of the sting for the Brits. Canada is widely seen ITTL as being a strong middle player who doesn't jump after people, a diplomat with big guns and a pile of cash to back up their point.
Yes, and Expo 67 will be there as well.
Britain's industrial might will be in many fields - steel, energy, automobiles, aerospace, shipbuilding, electronics - be completely overhauled in the 1970s and 1980s, helped by Canadian firms and technology and sending some back as well. The Commonwealth, you see, wants to not have its influence get swallowed up by the United States, and that means working with everyone and everything. India is going to also get in on this act in the 1980s and 1990s, and everyone is going to assist in improving South Africa after the end of apartheid. Britain is looking at both Europe and the Commonwealth, as is France. By the 1970s, France will be trying to get into the act in the Commonwealth (particularly Canada, where the connection is stronger) just as much as the British. The Canadian market for just about everything is one of the world's most open because the Europeans and the Americans both want to get into it.
Can't see China doing as well ITTL as OTL.
India will be too far ahead, with a solid base in the Commonwealth.
If Britain's African colonies also join the Commonwealth and get the assistance they need coupled with a healthy injection of Welfare Capitalism, it's exploitation of African resources to feed it's Industries won't be going anywhere. This is of course before taking into account a much stronger and wealthier Korea and Australia in the region.
I really want to know the Commonwealth's Energy situation. How much do they deal with Alt-OPEC? With Canada and Australia being energy exporters, and Nigeria, South Africa, Sudan all having Coal/Oil deposits.
India will be too far ahead, with a solid base in the Commonwealth.
If Britain's African colonies also join the Commonwealth and get the assistance they need coupled with a healthy injection of Welfare Capitalism, it's exploitation of African resources to feed it's Industries won't be going anywhere. This is of course before taking into account a much stronger and wealthier Korea and Australia in the region.
I really want to know the Commonwealth's Energy situation. How much do they deal with Alt-OPEC? With Canada and Australia being energy exporters, and Nigeria, South Africa, Sudan all having Coal/Oil deposits.
Thank you.
Indeed so. China didn't really get going with its economic development until the 1980s, and India is starting that process long before they did IOTL - they didn't start dismantling the License Raj until 1991 IOTL, whereas here they began doing it in the late 1960s, and not having economic sanctions against them as IOTL (a result of their 1974 nuclear test) helps matters, that made possible by their decision to build a major naval fleet in the 1950s and 1960s that is seen as being a source of both power and pride for India - India as of 1972 operates two aircraft carriers (INS Viraat and INS Vikrant, the former HMS Eagle and HMS Ark Royal), two battleships (INS Shivaji and INS Shikra, the former HMS Howe and Anson) and a quite large fleet of smaller warships of various origins, though the last of the WWII destroyers will leave Indian service in the early 1970s, supported by a big naval air fleet both on the carriers and off of them, again of various origins. India here industrializes in a more trade-driven way than China did, starting off by exporting many materials in large amounts and in the process growing the national wealth, which is subsequently used to massively improve the country's infrastructure. The Commonwealth is a big help on both fronts, and the white dominions see India being developed as a potentially vast benefit to them, as having one of the world's largest countries be a good ally with you is a big help. Here, India isn't a big fan of the USSR even though they are much closer to them than most of the Commonwealth, but the United States' long-standing support of Pakistan pisses the Indians off to no end, even though the Commonwealth by the early 1970s is not big fans of Pakistan's persistent political instability and creeping Islamism. The turn towards that Islamism of Pakistan in the 1970s and India evolving after Indira Gandhi will shift the balance of power in that part of the world decisively in India's favor.
China will be recognized by the United States in 1972 as IOTL, but China's lingering distaste with Britain over Hong Kong (which China wants back, has since the Korean War) and the Commonwealth's disdain for communism means the two Chinas - the PRC on the mainland and the ROC on Taiwan - will be at loggerheads for a long, long time to come, and Tiananmen Square will make things worse as far as relations between the Commonwealth and the People's Republic of China.
Sorta true. Africa will be divided into nations that choose to completely toss out the colonial influence (the Congo and the Portuguese colonies) and those who seek help from the Commonwealth and the West. Rhodesia will be a pain in the ass to the Commonwealth in the 1970s, but there will be a happier ending in Rhodesia, Namibia and South Africa than OTL. Kenya, Tanzania (Nyerere never goes full moron here, passing on the Arusha Declaration and instead focusing on economic growth in the 1960s and 1970s, which leaves Tanzania way ahead of OTL) and Madagascar all do much better than OTL. Uganda spends an age picking up the pace after Idi Amin, but they do eventually get closer to the others. Several other nations in West Africa (particularly Ghana, Senegal and Ivory Coast) also do far better than OTL, and in the case of the Ivory Coast and Senegal become symbols of what the French seek to achieve in their former colonies. Africa is very much divided by wealth, but the 1980s sees the beginning on a long boom in the continent, which gets much more pronounced after the end of apartheid and when the world's changing geopolitics.
Canada was invited to be a member of OPEC with its founding in 1960 but chose not to join, instead choosing to decide their own production. Australia isn't an energy exporter to speak of, though they do export bloody near everything else - bauxite, iron ore, nickel, gold, diamonds, liquefied natural gas, uranium, coal, rare earth metals - as well as vast amounts of wool and foodstuffs of all kinds, which contributes to them having similarly-huge piles of investment cash. (This when combined with tight control of monetary policy has resulted in the Australian dollar being one of the world's most high-value currencies, which is a major help to the country's standard of living, which is correspondingly high.
) Nigeria is an OPEC member but will have a better fate starting particularly in the 1980s, and while Nigeria was suspended from the Commonwealth as a result of the Biafran War, that will change in the late 1970s.This, in a nutshell. BOAC was run by morons for much of its existence IOTL, but here the Vickers VC-7 beat the Boeing 707 to the punch and became BOAC's workhorse, and its success makes sure the VC-10 (which is more refined than the VC-7 as well as having longer legs) is also beloved by BOAC. The Canadair Metroliner and Hawker Siddeley Trident (the latter not troubled as a result of BOAC's stupidity and as a result debuts two years before the nearly-identical in design Boeing 727, with the predictable sales result) also make an impact, this reducing the Bristol Britannia to an aviation afterthought (though the Britannia was beloved by those who flew it, it was passe in the era of jets and the Dash 7 combined with the Metroliner, VC-10 and Trident all but eliminated it from airline services by the early 1970s) and making turboprops an endangered species until the Dash 7 and the Dash 8 that followed it showed it was possible to use turboprops for a purpose.