Glossary of Sealion Threads
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If this hasn't already been posted - https://shows.acast.com/wehaveways/episodes/261.thegermansarecoming
We Have Ways Of Making You Talk Ep. 261 - The Germans Are Coming
We Have Ways Of Making You Talk Ep. 261 - The Germans Are Coming
I'm surprised that my causewaylion thread has not been posted yet, so I figured I'd do it. I don't recommend taking the idea too seriously
WI: Causewaylion? The Nazis try to build a causeway to Britain after defeating the Soviet Union.
We all know that the original plan for operation Sealion was unworkable and doomed to legendary failure. The barges would be sunk by the British navy and air force. Moreover, if the Nazi force by some miracle landed, they would die on the beaches or slightly inland due to a lack of resupply. I'd...
www.alternatehistory.com
Soo I was listening to I like War speech from Hellsing (I'm writing a fanfic involving Adrian tepes joining millennium organization at Their request because they hoped to use him as the sword to slay Dracula allowing millennium to conquer without his involvement.
However I like War causes Adrian to run )
Anyway one of the lines that struck me in the speech
"Finally it seems that the sea lion had crossed the ocean"
Deep cut that had I not known about it I would have glossed over
However I like War causes Adrian to run )
Anyway one of the lines that struck me in the speech
"Finally it seems that the sea lion had crossed the ocean"
Deep cut that had I not known about it I would have glossed over
Could it be possible for Germany to win The Battle of Britain, or is this also a really far-fetched possibility like the naval invasion part of Sealion? Seems like the air phase was a close-run battle, largely decided by British heroism in the air and the invention of radar?
Define "win". The point of the battle was to achieve total air superiority. That would require the total destruction of Fighter Command and as many of it's airfields in the south as possible,
Is that remotely possible for the Luftwaffe (getting total air superiority/destroying Fighter Command and most southern airfields), or is that also a "that's probably never going to happen"? Thanks for the clarification, so I'm going to use that as criteria.
Maybe. I do know the Luftwaffe was causing considerable losses and damage to the airfields, untill Hitler's decision to focus on London as (mainly) retaliation for the RAF bombing Berlin. So, maybe one can extrapolate a timeline where the Luftwaffe's focus remains on the airfields and infrastruture: that plus losses might weaken Fighter Command enough. Otoh Luftwaffe's losses would also probably differ so... who knows...
But even if the LW continues to focus on 11 Group's airfields and infrastructure, there's still 12 Group further north (as well as the smaller Groups) that were not going to be effected. Grass airfields are also very hard to put out of action, especially since the relevant ones were sitting inside a major country with all its engineering resources available if filling in holes became an absolute priority.
The other Groups also had a higher proportion of Spits than 11 Group did, which means that the quality of aircraft wasn't going to decrease even if 11 Group was knocked out.
On top of that, of course, the idea that the RN was dog meat for the LW is vastly over-played in a lot of popular media. Even at Crete, where the RN was operating hundreds of miles from its bases and therefore often running low on AA ammunition, the RN was far from wiped out; it suffered severe losses but it overwhelmingly carried out its missions, including stopping invasion convoys.
The other Groups also had a higher proportion of Spits than 11 Group did, which means that the quality of aircraft wasn't going to decrease even if 11 Group was knocked out.
On top of that, of course, the idea that the RN was dog meat for the LW is vastly over-played in a lot of popular media. Even at Crete, where the RN was operating hundreds of miles from its bases and therefore often running low on AA ammunition, the RN was far from wiped out; it suffered severe losses but it overwhelmingly carried out its missions, including stopping invasion convoys.
I did mention "Fighter command" not any specific group; the main problem was the support infrasture in the south, ie airfields with all they had besides runways. Even OTL there was some transfer of fighters north->south. But yeah, the RN is a whole other problem. The germans (other than the navy, and even some of that...) vastly underestimated the naval problems and the power the RN was willing to tranfer there. Gaining air superiority? Maaaaaybe. Saying that would guarantee a successful Sea Lion? No.
On a side note, I miss seeing some new non-ASB atempt at making Sea Lion work... it was fun!
There was a certain joy in finding ever more elements that would undermine the whole fiasco.
If an ASB in 1933 had replaced Hitler's desire to take Russia with an equal desire to take Britain, could a version of Sealion that worked have been made?
Yes but would he even be a Nazi at that point? The really primary thing that defines them to me is the wanted destruction of the Slavic people and the Jews so betraying that goal just to take Britain sorta would have to be ASB related. Yes. I say yes to the question lol
I doubt it, tbh.
The biggest problem, which I've never seen any Sealion thread deal with, is that the RN is absolutely huge and the UK has far more shipbuilding capacity than Germany. If the Germans start trying to build a navy that can seriously challenge the Royal Navy then it's going to be seen and the UK is going to react
Constructing such a large German navy also takes massive amounts of resources from the Heer and Luftwaffe, meaning Germany may well fail in their invasions of Czechoslovakia, Poland or France and the Low Countries and therefore never be in a position to consider invading the UK.
It would require a massive boost to the german navy, at least in ships capable of escorting across channel (maybe monitors cheaper/simpler than full BBs to provide the heavy cover) as well as a lot more work, on the Luftwaffe's part, on anti-shipping. Get the Stukas to practice starting in 38-39. But all of this without diverting any resources from the army, cause you still have to take Poland, France, Belgium, Holland... tbh, I don't see where Germany would get the resources to do both...
But in Crete, the Lutwaffe had a different primary task and that was to support the airborne units. Most air operations were aimed at capturing the island. Attacking RN ships was a secondary objective. Furthermore, the strength of the Luftwaffe was very limited, some reasons:
1. poor airfields in the area, moreover there were few, which reduced the strength of the Luftwaffe in the area
2. lack of fuel, if the Germans had not recovered the supplies of aviation gasoline left here by the RAF, their air operations would have been further curtailed
3. unsuitable aircraft, much of the attack on RN ships was carried out by Do 17's which had a small bomb load, in addition they carried out their attacks from higher altitudes
4. poor infrastructure in Greece, which made it difficult to supply the Luftwaffe, resulting in fuel and bomb shortages
5. the long distance between the targets, which did not allow the full potential of the Ju 87 to be used, which mostly used only SC 250 bombs, only rarely were heavier ones used
All very well described in this book: (https://www.amazon.com/Air-Yugoslavia-Greece-Crete-1940-41/dp/0948817070)
Airfields in France would be much better supplied, closer to the operational areas, and the Luftwaffe strength would be much greater. Units equipped with the Ju 87 could use much heavier and more effective bombs than just the SC 250. British losses would certainly not be small as you claim….