Glossary of Sealion Threads

There is an article about Forczyk's book in the November 2016 issue of BBC History Magazine. He states that "Many of these were armed with 20 mm flak guns and bowitzers......And while the German navy had few destroyers to deploy in the Channel, it did have large numbers of light warships to protect the barges from attack."

He also states that tbe "Royal Navy would have been lucky to intercept and destroy even 10 per cent of the invasion force." The RAF would have been "unable to deploy in strength until the morning of the landing."

Leo McKinstry, author of the book Operation Sealion, told BBC History Magazine that "I think the author underestimates the severe difficulties in the Reich's path, including the lack of co-ordination between their services and the huge inferiority of the Kreigsmarine compared to the Royal Navy."
I thought he'd be some self-published nobody, but he's got other stuff listed on Amazon too. Strange - the claims are just so stupid.

Destroying 10% of the force on the first crossing means damaging another 10% or so and scattering each convoy properly intercepted, meaning that it ends up scattering troops along dozens of miles of English (and French!) beaches. And then they have to go back again. Two journeys guts your force!
Well obviously the RAF wouldn't have been able to deploy in strength until the morning, for the same reason why the Blitz bombers weren't intercepted, or the Luftwaffe didn't interfere with HMS Revenge's bombardment - night.
I can't imagine that a gun bolted to the deck of a rolling, pitching barge would be very effective at night, particularly when used by inexperienced seamen.
I can't even imagine that radar would be much use. You wouldn't need it to pick out the convoys, and there'd be so many targets that the plot would just get overwhelmed.
 
Listened to the podcast Forczyk and not very impressed,

(1) drastically under estimates the travel times for German convoys
(2) overlooks that photo recon would have detected the loading which would have taken a long time
(3) fails to mention the vast amount of patrol vessels, around 400 around Britain which had large numbers patronly every night, while mostly small purpose built admiralty trawlers, converted trawlers, mins sweepers etc which would be highly likely to find the German convoys and against the pitiful german escorts would have been a problem, and also vector in the Destroyers, Torpedo boats and the motor boats. focusing on destroyers and up is totally misleading.
(4) uses German anti shipping performances form later in the war when they were much better at in in 1940.
(5) uses a 5% of destroyers shells hitting for his 10% figure overlooks anything else contributing, or indeed the destroyer torpedoes, or that many of the barges would be towed this many hits would effective take out mullet barges.
(6) does not mention the extremely poor sea worthless of the invasion barges, converted river barges, with most of them unp[owered an stowed, with barely trained crews.
 
The reviews are streaming in on Amazon. Forczyk is defending his work quite energetically. For some reason, discussion of use of chemical weapons seems to be a hot topic.

For some reason Forczyk seems to think that German freighters with one (1) 20-mm gun firing exploding shells are formidable opponents of British destroyers.

It makes me want to quote Sefton Delmer, from his history of British "black" radio propaganda:

Sefton Delmer said:
“We English, as you know, are notoriously bad at languages,” said I, talking my most impeccable German, “and so it will be best, meine Herren Engellandfahrer,* if you learn a few useful English phrases before visiting us. “ For your first lesson we will take: Die Kanaluberfahrt . . . the Channel crossing, the Chan-nel cros-sing.” “ Now just repeat after me: Das Boot sinkt . . . the boat is sinking, the boat is sin-king.” “ Das Wasser ist kalt ... the water is cold. Sehr kalt ... very cold.” “ Now, I will give you a verb that should come in useful. Again please repeat after me:

“Ich brenne....... I burn

“Du brennst....... you burn

“Er brennt........... he burns

“Wir brennen..... we burn

“Ihr brennt............you are burning

“Yes, meine Herren, in English, a rather practical language, we use the same word `you’ for both the singular and the plural:

“Ihr brennt . . . you are burning “ Sie brennen . . . they burn”

And if I may be allowed to suggest a phrase: Der SS Sturmführer brennt auch ganz schon ... The SS Captain is also burning quite nicely, the SS Captain is al-so bur-ning quite nice-ly!”

Black Boomerang
 
"World at War" issue 52 is out, with a 25 page article about Sealion. It's quite a balanced article, well worth a read as it doesn't heavily support one side or the other, though it reaches the usual conclusions. There are some obvious gaps in the author's knowledge. He says that both the Heer and the Luftwaffe developed plans for invading England in November and December 1939, I'd not heard of them. The article accompanies the fabulous new game, which is also now available. The game includes the most detailed map yet as well as many features not included in other games. Disappointing that they didn't publish my article but gave it as a reference and even then the author seems to have ignored it.http://shop.strategyandtacticspress.com/ProductDetails.asp…

World at War, Issue #52 - Game Edition
Publisher of the longest running military history magazine
SHOP.STRATEGYANDTACTICSPRESS.COM
 
What is it about operation sea lion and people who think they a lot more about history than they actually do. The other day I found someone who seemed to think Kriegsmarine was a German commando force specialised in amphibious landings.
 
What is it about operation sea lion and people who think they a lot more about history than they actually do. The other day I found someone who seemed to think Kriegsmarine was a German commando force specialised in amphibious landings.
Well the Germans do have good forces to be fair to to them. However, the problem is, people will wank to the high heavens, ignoring that luck and better preparations is what got them the wild success. Sure if they had hindsight, maybe it would have succeeded, but without seeing the Fall of France, they could never be prepared for such an invasion.
 
Well the Germans do have good forces to be fair to to them. However, the problem is, people will wank to the high heavens, ignoring that luck and better preparations is what got them the wild success. Sure if they had hindsight, maybe it would have succeeded, but without seeing the Fall of France, they could never be prepared for such an invasion.
My main point was not primarily on the ability of the Kriegsmarine, it was that he thought they were the German equivalent of the Royal or US marines, Kriegmarine is just the name for the german navy. the closest they had to a some equivalent to marines of other countries would be the Marinestosstruppkomanie (PS god damn the Germans and their horrible spelling) which was only a few hundred strong. A more common misconception about the ww2 German armed forces is that I often hear people refer to the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe are separate groups with people believing that Wehrmacht refed to the German army. In fact the Wehrmacht is the blanket term for the combined ww2 German armed forces, Heer referred specifically to their army as such the Luftwaffe was part of the Wehrmacht.
 
So another thread that will need to be modded into this post
I used the search function to find threads with Sealion, Seelowe and Seel[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ö[/FONT]we in the title looking just in the After 1900 forum. Perhaps one or two threads with Seeloewe are trying to slip past the British in the dark and there will be probably be a swarm of "successful invasion in 1940" threads that have escaped. I kept the number of posts and views as 19.1.2011 to give some idea of the extent of the discussion. Some of the listed posts do not actually discuss Sealion. For example, one discusses Japanese invasion plans against Australia. However, this list does give some idea of the effort expended by present and former members since 2004.[/FONT]

British after DEFEATED Sealion ( 1 2 3 4 5 6) KillerT 108 4383
British after Sealion ( 1 2 3) Pichuscrat
48 1270
American Sealion ( 1 2 3) Arcvalons 40 1351
Realistic Reverse Sealion Puget Sound 8 575
So HOW disasterous would Sealion be? ( 1 2) henri 31 1705
Operation Sealion, A German Success Evilprodigy 13 601
Saving Private Sealion BlackWave 14 507
Sealion Interview Mostlyharmless 11 742
Sealion Realtime Coxed ( 1 2 3 4) patch_g 70 2897
Sealion '41 Dan 4 512
Hilter's Sealion Ming777 9 602
Operation Sealion ( 1 2) Polarity 23 1010
Sealion Posts ( 1 2 3) merlin 40 1752
An interesting take on Sealion ( 1 2 3 4) Grey Wolf 67 3353
Latest POD for a successful Sealion. Snowstalker 17 556
Perfidious Albion encourages Sealion cerebus 13 776
Billy Mitchell causes successful Operation Sealion! SunilTanna 10 712
Ultimate Challenge (besides Sealion): Mondale beats Reagan! Snowstalker 10 409
Political Consequences of a Failed Sealion usertron2020 7 539
Successful Sealion? ( 1 2 3 4 5) Snowstalker 96 3622
A question about Operation Sealion? EMPEPEROR OF SCANDANAVIA 12 731
Looking for Sealion debunks Alamo 1 292
Plans for the aftermath of a successful Sealion? TheNordicBrit 7 535
Ireland if sealion was sucessful ( 1 2) NIK PARMEN 30 1420
AH Challange-WW1 Sealion King Thomas 12 646
Sealion! ( 1 2 3) varyar 42 1476
DBWI: Sealion!, the musical Dilvish 5 350
Succesful Sealion ( 1 2) Abdul Alhazred 21 709
Asian Sealion Expat 1 304
WI no Sealion plan? BlackWave 5 290
Plausibility Check: Sealion in 1941 Onkel Willie 18 631
Reverse Sealion... Mr Stereo1 9 783
N00BWI: Sealion Lord Malikai 13 520
Effects of a German Debacle Sealion BigWillyG 19 712
WI Churchill tricked Hitler into launching S*****n? King Thomas 6 466
Sealion as a Dieppe-style raid ( 1 2) Onkel Willie 27 1102
Plausibility Check: A Soviet Sealion Fardell 7 341
Sealion With Less 'Sea' eltf177 2 517
To Sealion and Beyond... ( 1 2) Chris 35 1802
After A Failed Sealion rip89 15 725
As queer as a Clockwork Sealion ( 1 2) maverick 27 1532
Operation Sealion Bavarian Raven 12 460
effects of failed sealion kellineil 8 556
Looking for a good Sealion thread mowque 3 222
DBWI Germany had not tried Sealion yourworstnightmare 10 608
WI Sealion Attempted Tyr 17 880
Could Sealion have worked If? ( 1 2) Churchill 23 887
Operation Sealion succeeds... ( 1 2) dmz23 33 1618
Sealion successfull ( 1 2) MUC 26 940
A Dieppe-style Sealion ( 1 2 3) Jason 45 1868
Operation Sealion disaster Michel Van 10 907
BardWI: WI Operation Sealion Was Succesful ( 1 2 3 4) Hannibal.Caesar 60 1868
NoobWI: What if Operation Sealion suceeded? Sid the Bandit 16 661
A More Realistic Sealion Outcome ( 1 2) eltf177 37 1730
A different name for Operation Sealion ( 1 2) DMA 37 1232
N00BWI: how might Sealion succeed? ( 1 2) the_lyniezian 22 778
Plan a Successful Sealion! ( 1 2 3) Nekromans 49 1487
Operation Sealion ( 1 2) zeitenschmiede 27 1200
What if the Germans attempted Sealion... ( 1 2) demonkangaroo 21 1296
Challenge - Make Sealion Possible ! ( 1 2 3) Grey Wolf 45 2251
DBWI: What if Sealion had... failed? ( 1 2) Dean_the_Young 26 1208
Time for the Semiannual Sealion Smackdown! ( 1 2 3 4) Dean_the_Young 75 2774

Operation Sealion Fails Landshark 15 1000
sealion with a sporting chance ( 1 2) Paul Edwards 30 1048
My Attempt on a Successful Sealion Berra 18 725
Operation Sealion ( 1 2) dmz23 32 1048
The effects of a failed Sealion Justin Green 11 867
Poll: SeaLion - the poll ( 1 2 3) Magnum 55 1857
Could Operation Sealion have worked? ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) RCTFI 183 6955
Operatsiya Morskoi Lev - a Soviet Sealion Midgard 9 813
Sealion 67th Tigers 11 589
Operation Sealion by Air?? ( 1 2 3) trajen777 45 1273
Operation Sealion FAILS! Scarecrow 16 672
Wi: Operation Sealion is a plausible TL ( 1 2) Bismarck 22 941
Never mind Sealion here is the attack on the Radiostation Helgoland oberdada 19 655
Operation Sealion ( 1 2) Fenwick 22 903
Operation Sealion ( 1 2 3 4 5 6) Chingo360 116 3170
What if operation Sealion was a success? ( 1 2) Fenwick 39 1001
Yet another Sealion thread aktarian 2 431
Successful Sealion aktarian 7 584
New Sealion: Japanese invasion Down Under? ( 1 2) chrispi 23 1237
Sealion! ...kinda. Tetsu 4 484
WI: Sealion Attempted and Failed ( 1 2) TheLoneAmigo 31 1226
ATL - Successful OP Sealion campaign ( 1 2 3 4) Hail the Omnissiah! 74 2796

Seelowe Succesful!! Mein gott Gustavus Adolphus 2 245
AH Challenge Have Seelowe inflict the Most damage on Britain Gustavus Adolphus 9 419
Seelowe ( 1 2 3 4 5) Graehame 81 3260
AH Challenge: Uber Seelowe, A German invasion of America. ( 1 2) The Red 24 1035


IS Seelöwe The Only Way To German Victory? ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page) Dave in St. Louis 213 6233
Seelöwe successful, so what? ( 1 2 3 4) Wyragen-TXRG4P 69 2935
Ultimate Challenge: Unternehmen Seelöwe ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) Ariosto 166 5430
10 reasons why...
 
A few quick points.
1. Taking all of the river barges in Western Europe and using them in Sea Lion creates enormous transport problems within Europe and quickly reduces industrial output.
2. In 1940 the main source of mobility for the German Army was horses. Sea Lion would involve the transport of an enormous number of horses (and horse feed) across the Channel.
3. The really big problem isn't the initial landing. It's resupply (as the Allies learned after Normandy). The Germans would quickly need gasoline, horse feed, munitions, food, etc. at an enormous pace. Unless a working port could be captured intact, it would be a huge undertaking to continue bringing this stuff over the beaches with an ever-dwindling (due to sinkings by naval and air forces of the UK) transport fleet. There would be interruptions due to bad weather. Construction equipment would be needed to create air fields. It is very likely that an invasion force would die on the vine or have to be evacuated.
 
Less directly Sealion related than some but close enough that I'll put it here, based on OTL technological progress at what stage would AShM's etc. gotten advanced enough that control of the channel would have become functionally an aerial battle and maintaining even local, temporary naval superiority (such as that needed to disrupt an attempted invasion) without significant aerial support would be impossible?

Is that the case even today?
 
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