Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by IchBinDieKaiser, Jan 19, 2011.
Forczyc's also got Siebel ferrys available this moves Sealion to 1941 with added IoW shenanigans
Forczyk's book is now available from Amazon, so you can make your own decision.
I thought he'd be some self-published nobody, but he's got other stuff listed on Amazon too. Strange - the claims are just so stupid.
Destroying 10% of the force on the first crossing means damaging another 10% or so and scattering each convoy properly intercepted, meaning that it ends up scattering troops along dozens of miles of English (and French!) beaches. And then they have to go back again. Two journeys guts your force!
Well obviously the RAF wouldn't have been able to deploy in strength until the morning, for the same reason why the Blitz bombers weren't intercepted, or the Luftwaffe didn't interfere with HMS Revenge's bombardment - night.
I can't imagine that a gun bolted to the deck of a rolling, pitching barge would be very effective at night, particularly when used by inexperienced seamen.
I can't even imagine that radar would be much use. You wouldn't need it to pick out the convoys, and there'd be so many targets that the plot would just get overwhelmed.
Listened to the podcast Forczyk and not very impressed,
(1) drastically under estimates the travel times for German convoys
(2) overlooks that photo recon would have detected the loading which would have taken a long time
(3) fails to mention the vast amount of patrol vessels, around 400 around Britain which had large numbers patronly every night, while mostly small purpose built admiralty trawlers, converted trawlers, mins sweepers etc which would be highly likely to find the German convoys and against the pitiful german escorts would have been a problem, and also vector in the Destroyers, Torpedo boats and the motor boats. focusing on destroyers and up is totally misleading.
(4) uses German anti shipping performances form later in the war when they were much better at in in 1940.
(5) uses a 5% of destroyers shells hitting for his 10% figure overlooks anything else contributing, or indeed the destroyer torpedoes, or that many of the barges would be towed this many hits would effective take out mullet barges.
(6) does not mention the extremely poor sea worthless of the invasion barges, converted river barges, with most of them unp[owered an stowed, with barely trained crews.
Test. So, am I dead?
The reviews are streaming in on Amazon. Forczyk is defending his work quite energetically. For some reason, discussion of use of chemical weapons seems to be a hot topic.
For some reason Forczyk seems to think that German freighters with one (1) 20-mm gun firing exploding shells are formidable opponents of British destroyers.
It makes me want to quote Sefton Delmer, from his history of British "black" radio propaganda:
"World at War" issue 52 is out, with a 25 page article about Sealion. It's quite a balanced article, well worth a read as it doesn't heavily support one side or the other, though it reaches the usual conclusions. There are some obvious gaps in the author's knowledge. He says that both the Heer and the Luftwaffe developed plans for invading England in November and December 1939, I'd not heard of them. The article accompanies the fabulous new game, which is also now available. The game includes the most detailed map yet as well as many features not included in other games. Disappointing that they didn't publish my article but gave it as a reference and even then the author seems to have ignored it.http://shop.strategyandtacticspress.com/ProductDetails.asp…
World at War, Issue #52 - Game Edition
Publisher of the longest running military history magazine
It looks like Operation Sealion has finally achieved success.
What is it about operation sea lion and people who think they a lot more about history than they actually do. The other day I found someone who seemed to think Kriegsmarine was a German commando force specialised in amphibious landings.
Well the Germans do have good forces to be fair to to them. However, the problem is, people will wank to the high heavens, ignoring that luck and better preparations is what got them the wild success. Sure if they had hindsight, maybe it would have succeeded, but without seeing the Fall of France, they could never be prepared for such an invasion.
My main point was not primarily on the ability of the Kriegsmarine, it was that he thought they were the German equivalent of the Royal or US marines, Kriegmarine is just the name for the german navy. the closest they had to a some equivalent to marines of other countries would be the Marinestosstruppkomanie (PS god damn the Germans and their horrible spelling) which was only a few hundred strong. A more common misconception about the ww2 German armed forces is that I often hear people refer to the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe are separate groups with people believing that Wehrmacht refed to the German army. In fact the Wehrmacht is the blanket term for the combined ww2 German armed forces, Heer referred specifically to their army as such the Luftwaffe was part of the Wehrmacht.
So another thread that will need to be modded into this post
10 reasons why...
A few quick points.
1. Taking all of the river barges in Western Europe and using them in Sea Lion creates enormous transport problems within Europe and quickly reduces industrial output.
2. In 1940 the main source of mobility for the German Army was horses. Sea Lion would involve the transport of an enormous number of horses (and horse feed) across the Channel.
3. The really big problem isn't the initial landing. It's resupply (as the Allies learned after Normandy). The Germans would quickly need gasoline, horse feed, munitions, food, etc. at an enormous pace. Unless a working port could be captured intact, it would be a huge undertaking to continue bringing this stuff over the beaches with an ever-dwindling (due to sinkings by naval and air forces of the UK) transport fleet. There would be interruptions due to bad weather. Construction equipment would be needed to create air fields. It is very likely that an invasion force would die on the vine or have to be evacuated.
Is there an 'Operation Searion - the Japanese Invasion of the UK' in all that list?
ニホンアシカ or Nihon Ashika is the Japanese Sea Lion, like the German kind it is extinct
Why are Sealion threads so hated on this site? by IntellectuallyHonestRhino
Less directly Sealion related than some but close enough that I'll put it here, based on OTL technological progress at what stage would AShM's etc. gotten advanced enough that control of the channel would have become functionally an aerial battle and maintaining even local, temporary naval superiority (such as that needed to disrupt an attempted invasion) without significant aerial support would be impossible?
Is that the case even today?
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