Giving Doug Muir's "Bronze Age New World" Another Look

Hnau

Banned
I'm game for that. We'd probably want to flesh out the Marajo first. I'd bet they'd be raided and traded with just as with the Mayans and Mesoamericans.
 
Okay, you said that one of the big reasons for the collapse is because its Malthusian, that the population exceeds its ability to feed itself. At the most, this population grows to a million people, half slave, half free-men. However, in 1491, the population of the Taino on the Caribbean islands (Bahamas, Cuba, Hispaniola, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, the Lesser Antilles) numbered close to 2.5 million, and maize wasn't spread around as it would be with the *Arawaks. So the *Arawaks could last longer before they exceed the carrying capacity of the Caribbean islands... unless we fudge the population growth rates. Still, having 2.5x as many people as we originally thought there were does make a big difference in how many people survive and whether that many people will be able to rebuild something of a civilized society...

Perhaps. Let me argue the conservative view.

First, keep in mind that estimates of Native American populations are still somewhat up for grabs. The range has narrowed in the last generation or two, but we're still talking about pretty large error bars.

Next, superior technology -- even agricultural technology -- does not automatically translate into more population. In the Pacific, for instance, several of the island groups had populations well below their hypothetical carrying capacities. Some of the reasons for this included sharp social stratification, political divisions, and war.

Social stratification: the lower classes don't have access to the surplus; the aristocrats throw potlatches while the woodcutters starve. A certain amount of this seems to have gone on in Samoa. Political divisions, obviously, one village has a surplus but refuses to trade with a rival. And war: as late as the 1920s, Arthur Grimble was noticing that one of the best village sites in the Gilbert islands was mysteriously empty. The reason, he was told, was that the nearby villages were rivals, and neither would tolerate the other founding a settlement there.

On a larger scale, for a couple of generations before white settlers arrived, a huge chunk of Wisconsin was an uninhabited neutral zone between the Ojibway and Chippewa -- it was like the modern DMZ in Korea, deliberately left empty as a buffer zone. A bit earlier -- 18th century -- the northern 2/3 of what's now Ohio was kept empty by the Iroquois so that they could have exclusive access to the beaver there. ("Kept empty" here means, they killed or drove out the locals, and any non-Iroquois caught venturing in would be gruesomely killed.) I'm not even going to mention things like Shaka's Crushing and what it did to southern Africa.

Note that most of these involved native groups who had just seen sudden *increases* in available technology. The tribes who would compose the Iroquois had been more or less in balance with their neighbors until the 1600s; the advent of muskets and steel knives and tools turned them into aggressive commercial imperialists, with the result that native American populations across a wide region /dropped/ -- the Iroquois killed or drove off a great many tribes, but then lost so many men to wars and colonizing new territories that they themselves got spread very thin. This is why, at the micro level, they started the whole business of adopting favored captives; at the macro level, it's why Iroquois ethnogenesis is still really fraught.

So while it could be as simple as "better boats -> more fish, some new strains of maize -> bigger food surplus -> more people", it could could also go "better boats, etc. -> let's go kill the neighbors and take their stuff!"

Another relevant model here may be the Greek Dark Ages. The Mycenaens were a seagoing Bronze Age civilization scattered across islands and mainland, with a fair degree of specialized trade. They were in almost every respect more advanced then our *Arawaks (writing, domestic animals, better food package) and also had the benefit of proximity to other major civilizational centers. Yet they collapsed so fast and so completely that we're still not sure what happened, and it took three centuries before civilization even began to recover. Archeological evidence from the Greek Dark Ages suggests that population crashed dramatically; towns and cities disappeared off the map entirely, trade links vanished, literacy seems to have been completely lost. Even their pottery got simpler and more primitive.

So if that could happen to the Mycenaeans, we had no problem imagining something even worse coming down on the unfortunate *Arawaks.


Doug M.
 

Hnau

Banned
Doug M. said:
Another relevant model here may be the Greek Dark Ages. The Mycenaens were a seagoing Bronze Age civilization scattered across islands and mainland, with a fair degree of specialized trade. They were in almost every respect more advanced then our *Arawaks (writing, domestic animals, better food package) and also had the benefit of proximity to other major civilizational centers. Yet they collapsed so fast and so completely that we're still not sure what happened, and it took three centuries before civilization even began to recover. Archeological evidence from the Greek Dark Ages suggests that population crashed dramatically; towns and cities disappeared off the map entirely, trade links vanished, literacy seems to have been completely lost. Even their pottery got simpler and more primitive.

Alright, that makes more sense to me. Thanks for explaining that. I do wish I knew more about the collapse of Mycenaean Greeks... and it looks like recent research has overturned many hypotheses on what caused the collapse and how bad it really got. The Aegean from Bronze Age to Iron Age: Continuity and Change Between the Twelfth and Eighth Centuries B.C. by Oliver Dickinson looks like a good book to read about this new up-to-date research, it came out in 2006.

Mycenaean Greece collapsed most probably due to environmental catastrophes in the form of drought and famine, and pressures from hostile populations in the form of invasion and raiding. Iron-working was spreading rapidly, making weapons easier to make and mass produce, thus shaking up geopolitics between the haves and the have-nots... the Dorians and the Sea People were the haves in this situation, the Greeks on the other side, and who suffered? The Greeks. But they also lost their trade links during the collapse that gave them copper and tin, so they started forging iron themselves. During the "Greek Dark Ages" (a term being used less and less nowadays as it is shown to not be as bad as previously thought) ironworking flourished in Greece and changed their civilization for the better. Superior pottery appeared after a century of more simplified 'barbaric' examples, the Protogeometric, with better glazes and better potter's wheels. Technology continued to progress after a century of stagnation, and finally blossomed into a renaissance by the 9th century BCE. Large parts of the country was still devastated, but some places recovered rather quickly: Attica, Euboea, Central Crete. From these remnants, technology was remembered and built upon after a century, and eventually they were able to restart the Greek civilization into the new age.

It seems the *Arawaks will fall due to different pressures than the Mycenaeans, and you've already depicted these: soil exhaustion, deforestation, disease. These are the root causes, all created as a by-product of the increased technology, population, and civilization in the Caribbean basin. The soil is exhausted because cotton is cultivated extensively on the islands to provide sails and rigging for *Arawak ships. Also, as you've said before, *Arawak cities begin to depend on specializing in order to make up differences in trade, which leads to the development of monocultures, which is bad for the soil. Old-growth trees are found farther and farther away from river or coastline due to a tree being felled for every *Arawak ship, which decays faster than they grow (15-75 years compared to hundreds). More labor is required as the close old-growth trees are no more, because you need more men to scout for the trees, to roll the logs a longer distance, and to clear the land for log-rolling roads. The cost of dugout canoes increases, even as attempts are made to make smaller catamarans so that shorter trees can be cut down. Less trading ships means there are less bronze tools, which means the labor requirement of cutting down trees rapidly increases as slaves must now use stone axes instead of bronze ones. At the same time, less slaving ships (and less bronze weapons) leads to less slaves, which means that existing slaves must be forced to serve for longer periods, and work longer hours. The increasing demands of the *Arawak slave caste rapidly lead to slave revolts. And finally: disease. As population densities increase, and as exploration leads to more peoples coming into contact with one another, diseases can more easily find vectors and flourish in the host population when they get there.

As all of these pressures increase and multiply one another, there are resource wars and increased raiding... a collapse becomes inevitable as a society becomes unstable. I get that. But the devils in the details. When do the soils start becoming exhausted? Whenever we want them to? When does deforestation become enough of a problem that the vicious cycle I mentioned grows teeth? And when does tloggotl hit for the first time? For the third question, it makes sense that tloggotl would be the Third Wave, the last and largest, only appearing after the others have done their worst... because malnourishment, warfare and moving populations would allow for the perfect environment for it to strike. But it seems like we can accurately predict when the soils start becoming dangerously exhausted, when the close old-growth trees die out, when the population grows beyond its ability to feed itself. And when it happens, there will be massive depopulation, but might pockets survive better than the others, like Attica, Euboea, and Crete?

Think about it: the *Arawak civilization is built on outriggers and old-growth trees at first, then cotton, then slaves, then bronze. The bronze is taken away, there's no new source of slaves (though local populations could be used... who knows, maybe the former *Arawaks become slaves on some islands), there's still cotton though less of it can be grown and there's less labor to grow it, but there's no trees of suitable size on most islands. And outriggers? No reason why everyone would forget that handy piece of tech. And about this quote of yours, Doug:

Doug M. said:
Finally, I note that there's no adjacent outside civilization to "rescue" the *Arawaks, or even to move in and pick up the pieces. So once civilization falls, it's likely to stay fallen for a while.

What about the Mesoamericans, the Maya, the Chesapeake, the Timucuan, and the Amazonian polities? It's been stated that the Tlon picked up the *Arawak navigational package, in a crude form, and started building catamarans on the Pacific. Why wouldn't they build boats in the Caribbean at some point and make the short 200-kilometer jaunt to Cuba to trade (perhaps raiding abandoned cities along the way)? Is there nothing of value in the Antilles in which the natives can trade for bronze? With bronze, everything else becomes easier. And within a hundred years, there could definitely be enough trees along the Venezuelan coastline and along the Orinoco to start building large catamarans again.
 
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What about the Mesoamericans, the Maya, the Chesapeake, the Timucuan, and the Amazonian polities? It's been stated that the Tlon picked up the *Arawak navigational package, in a crude form, and started building catamarans on the Pacific. Why wouldn't they build boats in the Caribbean at some point and make the short 200-kilometer jaunt to Cuba to trade (perhaps raiding abandoned cities along the way)?

Mesoamerica's a chaotic mess of tribe and city states at this point; the Tlon unification is just getting started. (And we had them coming in from the northwest, way over near the Sea of Cortez.)

The Maya are strictly inland. The Chesapeake don't exist yet. The Mississippian civilization is ramping up, but they loathe salt water. The Amazon is very far away.

By way of comparison, the Mycenaeans had regular trade links with the Hittites, the Levant, and Egypt -- all of which were just a few days' sail away.


Doug M.
 
I do wish I knew more about the collapse of Mycenaean Greeks... and it looks like recent research has overturned many hypotheses on what caused the collapse and how bad it really got. The Aegean from Bronze Age to Iron Age: Continuity and Change Between the Twelfth and Eighth Centuries B.C. by Oliver Dickinson looks like a good book to read about this new up-to-date research, it came out in 2006.

Sure. History is a moving target!

My understanding is that it's now thought the Greek Dark Ages were shorter and less horrible than was originally believed. On the other hand, keep in mind that the original version was basically total wipeout of civilization and regression to the most basic subsistence agriculture for ten generations or so. So, historiographically speaking, there was nowhere to go but up.

Even with revisions, it's clear that something really, really bad happened; the revised picture still includes massive population loss, disappearance of urban centers, at least a couple of generations of trade blackout, and complete loss of literacy.

It also seems that the something was a complex event; none of the simplistic explanations (earthquake, invasion, climate change) have held up well. It looks like they got hit with at least a couple of stressors more or less at once.


Doug M.
 

Hnau

Banned
Yeah, okay. Alright, I'll have to concede a bit more to you. Sorry for raggin' on your ideas like this. Still, I'm going to make one more attempt: the outrigger must still be around somewhere, along with the idea of the sail, and cotton would probably be found on all of the major islands of the Antilles. It's a 200-km gap from Cuba to the Yucatan, a 190-km gap from Jamaica to Hispaniola, 150-km gap from Cuba to Jamaica, 140-km gap from Hispaniola to Puerto Rico (with Isla Mona as a stopping point half-way), a 100-km gap from Inagua to Hispaniola, a 100-km gap from Florida to Grand Bahama Island, 90-km gap from Cuba to Hispaniola, an 85-km gap from Inagua to Cuba... all stretches of water that could be easily traversed if the natives remembered the general direction of other islands, and if they had the outrigger and crude sails.

I'd just like to have Columbus discover a Caribbean civilization well on its way to recovery from a collapse that took place nearly two centures ago, rather than a completely post-apocalyptic one. More advanced agriculture, with actual farms and plantations; populations on the coastline, dugouts+outriggers+sails as well as maybe a few catamarans+sails that fish and trade along the coast, a few bronze tools here and there imported at high cost from the Yucatan, a little more social stratification and complexity... something like that. And perhaps a more Carib-esque culture dominating the Venezuelan coast, the Orinoco basin, and the Lesser Antilles, with a more-or-less re-learned *Arawak navigational package, using trees that have grown to the necessary height in the last century to build huge war-canoes. It probably wouldn't change the timeline all too much, mostly just the mood.
 
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Sorry for raggin' on your ideas like this.

Are you kidding? I love this stuff! It's like playing tennis. Please, continue.

the outrigger must still be around somewhere, along with the idea of the sail, and cotton would probably be found on all of the major islands of the Antilles.

Certainly, very probably, and possibly. The outrigger seems to be one of those head-thumping ideas -- once a culture gets it, they don't lose it. (Although it's worth noting that Europeans never figured it out.)

OTOH, it is possible to lose the concept of a sail -- northern Europeans managed it after the collapse of the Roman Empire. (And the Lapita pre-Polynesians managed to lose *pottery*, which still blows my mind. How do you forget that?) And crops have blinked on and off throughout history -- though, AFAIK, cotton once discovered has never been lost. It is pretty useful stuff.

I'd just like to have Columbus discover a Caribbean civilization well on its way to recovery from a collapse that took place nearly two centures ago, rather than a completely post-apocalyptic one. More advanced agriculture, with actual farms and plantations; populations on the coastline, dugouts+outriggers+sails as well as maybe a few catamarans+sails that fish and trade along the coast, a few bronze tools here and there imported at high cost from the Yucatan, a little more social stratification and complexity... something like that.

Sure, why not. Go for it.

About the only thing I'd ask is that you keep the independent invention of surfing... OTL it was invented one place and one only -- Hawaii -- and then brought to California in the early 20th century, and thence around the world. But we really liked the idea of introducing it to early modern Europe. In this TL, there's a *Shakespeare play...


Doug M.
 

Hnau

Banned
Hmm... okay, with that issue mostly settled, maybe we can now start outlining the *Arawaks a little more clearly, as Ampersand has suggested.

In Atom's timeline, 5500 Years, the Taino fully conquered the Ciboney, and thus the entirety of the Antilles (besides what they lost within the last hundred years to the Caribs), by the year 1660. If outriggers increase the rate of expansion by 1.5x, and sailing catamarans by 2x, then we should see the *Arawak conquest of the entirety of the Antilles by the 10th century, seven hundred years before OTL. In the original, their collapse occurred between 1270 and 1330... which gives the *Arawaks three centuries to reach the carrying capacity of the Antilles. What is the carrying capacity, exactly, of this region? There's a lot of controversy over pre-Columbian population figures... what does everyone here think they might be, and how those figures can be used to arrive at a popution figure for the *Arawak civilization?
 

Hnau

Banned
I've been doing some research on Caribbean pre-Columbian population and man, the ranges are huge and it is quite a politicized matter. It's like looking for accurate figures on how many people were killed during Stalinist period... you have leftist and anti-communist researchers that each put forward drastically different results.

However, in comparing all the islands with their areas, a common population density starts appearing: 4, 5, and 6. Of the most surest figures, on some islands, the more smaller ones usually, they are almost always in this range. This is compared to some estimates for Hispaniola which approach 14 million, which would mean a population density of nearly 200 per square kilometer... and if that was true, then the rest of the Caribbean would likely be much more dense with peoples. So I'm guessing the population density for the entire Caribbean as of OTL 1492 is about 6 persons per square kilometer... which would give us a figure of about 1.4 million.

The *Arawaks will have the Mesoamerican agriculture package and more fishing capabilities, as well as bronze tools. I'm thinking they'll be able to fill the Antilles with half again as many people before they start pushing its carrying capacity... a good 9 persons per square kilometer, say 2.1 million persons for the entire Antilles. However, as I've said before, I think that the Orinoco basin, the Venezuelan coastline, and part of Colombia's coastline will be populated, perhaps not as much, though. So, 60 kilometers inland from the Colombian coastline, 80 kilometers inland from the Venezuelan coastline, multiply that amount of territory by 5 persons per square kilometer, and that'll add a good 1.3 million for a grand total of 3.4 million at the height of the *Arawak civilization.

Anyone want to challenge this reasoning?
 
Ok, I've had a look at "1491", and I've got a better idea of the situation in the Amazon. To simplify drastically, in the era we're talking about there are major civilisations at Santarem and Marajo, plus minor ones all along the river and its tributaries. The Santarem civilisation is where our historical Tapajos Indians come from. Internet resources are very weak on them, but they're one of the biggest producers of terra preta and the site could have supported 200,000 to 400,000 people. I haven't been able to find out much on the culture. There's a lot of elaborate pottery, probably used in funeral rites. There was also mention of the Tapajos embalming the heads of their defeated enemies.
There's even less information on Marajo - I can't even tell whether they made terra preta, although they'd need something to keep the soil fertile. Total numbers could be 100,000, and there's evidence of social stratification. Beyond that, we know zip about the culture.
Both cultures are going to have to fleshed out in much greater detail if we're going to use them in this timeline. For the cultures he created from scratch, Doug Muir had a system of randomly generating characteristics with 10-sided dice. Since we know so little about these cultures, I may as well use the same method. This is getting a bit long, so I'll do the random generating in another post.
 
The characteristics Doug Muir used when randomly generating cultures were Size, Duration, Aggression, Technology, and Wealth. Here's how I'm going to use them for Santarem and Marajo. This is just my interpretion of them, Doug may have meant something slightly different.
Size: Physical extent of the culture. Archaeology gives us some indication of how big they were, but it can't be exact and this parameter will help us set the boundaries.
Duration: How long the culture lasts in the alternate timeline.
Aggression: How likely the culture is to attack other cultures. In Bronze Age New World, the Mississippians are at the high end and the Chesapeakes at the other.
Technology: How advanced the technology of the culture is, including metal working, sailing, writing and so on.
Wealth: How productive the culture is overall. There's obviously a link between technology and wealth but the two parameters aren't redundant. High Tech - low Wealth cultures have a lot of clever tricks but lot of people going hungry. Vice-versa, there's just enough technology to prosper in the environment, but everyone's fairly well off.
So, pulling out my trusty 10-sided dice:
Santarem
Size 4 Duration 7 Aggression 8 Technology 4 Wealth 8
The below-average size means it's limited to the actual terra preta sites at the mouth of the Tapajos River. It survives for a long time after contact with the Arawaks, perhaps because it's almost as aggressive as the Mississipians. They'll have a lot of embalmed heads. Technology is nothing special, but the terra preta works fine and no-one's missing many meals.
Marajo
Size 4 Duration 10 Aggression 1 Technology 8 Wealth 9
These guys are even more durable, surviving right up to European contact even though they're as peaceful as the Chesapeakes. The high technology and wealth probably have something to do with this. Perhaps they get conquered easily enough but end up assimilating their rulers, like the Chinese. Size is below-average again, confined to known archaeological sites.
Any thoughts?
 

Hnau

Banned
I'm reading through 1491 as well, Gareth, seeing what I can find. Not too much on the Santarem or Marajo, though I think you got the population figures down correctly. I'm not too comfortable using random figures to create cultures, but I'm willing to use it as a guideline. For example, the Marajo may have higher technology than we expected, but we probably would have found evidence of bronze implements by now, so we can rule that out.

About the Beni from what I've been able to find: they used cotton extensively, wearing cotton tunics, pants, very well-clothed for the period and region; have a lot of ornaments made from various jewelry-oriented materials; live and farm on huge terraced mounds on which crude terra preta is created with ceramics, charcoal and compost, they have huge amount of fish weirs, canals, causeways, reservoirs, dikes, and earthworks, from which they get most of their food... during the wet season the entire society gets out to manage the weirs and pull in a massive amount of fish with woven-cotton-and-grass nets, they play ball games in cobble-stone courts, they burn the surrounding landscape periodically to keep the grasslands extensive in order to harness the seasonal flooding. Might they worship fish, as it is such a big part of their lives? Might they have extensive knowledge of farming fish in large hatcheries where fish sperm and eggs are mixed in large ceramic vases so they can be fertilized and grown in a controlled environment, then released into series of pools where they are fed and kept as an easy source of food? The Beni might call themselves the Fish-People and erect icons of fish-bones that they worship, believing themselves to be created as guardians and gods over the fish they depend on. They might even believe in a form of reincarnation, where humans and fish are one and the same, just on different parts of an eternal cycle... something like that.

See, that kind of brainstorm follows a more logical path of development. You create details from what you know, extending them into new directions and see where it takes you. I think I would do the same with the Marajo and the Santarem, but there is much less to work with. And random figures on a spectrum do work as useful guidelines. What are some of their neighbours with which we might pick up some cultural facets that might be similar to what the Marajo and Santarem had as part of their cultural package?
 

Hnau

Banned
Rise and Development of Social Complexity on Marajo Island said:
"The emergence and development of complex societies in the Amazonian
lowlands has been historically debated as a function of the relationships between
human populations and the natural environment. Culture ecology on one hand,
and historical ecology, on the other hand, have offered different views on cultural
development, without providing compelling archaeological testing.
The present study proposes an ecological-economic model to account for the
emergence of social complexity on Marajó Island. This model predicts that in
areas of abundant aquatic resources, communal cooperation for the construction
of river dams and ponds allowed for the development of a highly productive
fishing economy with low labor investment. The production of surpluses created
opportunities for kin group leaders to compete for the administration of the
water-management systems, leading to control over resources and surplus flow.
The differential access to resources created social stratification, and the
development of a complex religious-ideological system in order to legitimize the
political economy. Focusing on one of the Marajoara chiefdoms, a group of 34
mounds located along the Camutins River, the study demonstrates that the
location of ceremonial mounds in highly productive areas was related to control
over aquaculture systems.

The study suggests that the existence of similar ecological conditions in several
other locations on the Island led to the multiplication of small chiefdoms, which,
once in place, competed for labor, prestige, and power. Based also on data
provided by other researchers, this study proposes a chronology for the
emergence and demise of complex societies on Marajó Island, as well as
defining the main periods within Marajoara phase".

http://www.marajoara.com/current_research.html

So... the Marajoara were divided into many chiefdoms. They don't seem too complex... I expect a mostly animistic religion that supports a hierarchy with a ruling noble oligarchy over each polity. The Marajoara seemed to have an advanced concept of state power and communal/collective projects, similar to many cultures in South America, like the Tawantinsuya... so that's why I think there would be a ruling oligarchy. Kin-groups are mentioned on that site... perhaps there are family bloodlines, with the patriarch of each bloodline heading a certain family-managed enterprise, such as canal-building or canoe-building or something like that? I say patriarch because I imagine the classic Marajoara oligarchy as a group of very strong-willed, aggressive leaders that constantly jockey for the best portfolios and responsibilities... which means an environment where most women would not stand a chance.

Actually, probably not too many polities on Marajo island, there's not too much room without making it own polity per village. Just a handful... four or five.
 
That sounds reasonable for the Marajo. We'll have to decide what kind of family structure they had if the bloodlines will be important. There seems to be two main types in the Amazon, polygynous and matrilocal. They're more or less exclusive (it's hard to marry three wives and live with three different familes), but they're both encouraged by the high contribution women make to subsistence. Women are valuble, although not necessarily powerful or respected. You provide bride-service in exchange for a wife instead of demanding a dowry, or marry as many women as possible to increase your family's wealth. These family structures are hard to detect with archaeology, so we have a free choice. I'd make the Santarem matrilocal and the Marajo polygynous - that provides an interesting contrast and fits with your idea of Marajo patriarchs. If we're making the Santarem more aggressive that also fits - matrilocal families cooperate better when the men are away at war.
It's also a nice bit of irony if the "matriarchy" is nastier than the "patriarchy".
 

Hnau

Banned
I like that decision. Still wish we could figure out a little bit more about their culture/religion, maybe by figuring out what features their pottery depicted, that might help.

I just figured out that the Beni kept some of their dead in large pots... perhaps the same pots where they fertilize fish eggs? Maybe that could be a symbol of rebirth or some such... maybe the Beni believed that one's spirit divided into hundreds of fish after death, and when it was eaten by humans, the divided spirit adds to the creation of unborn spirits. Interesting view on spiritual recycling that I think the Beni would have liked... lots of examples of recycling in their culture, it seems like.

When someone dies, they are judged by the community/polity whether or not their spiritual qualities and characteristics should be in the next generation. If they are desirable, the person is laid in a large seven-foot funeral pot, a story of their life is painted on the pot, a few key totems and objects are placed in as well, and it's then burned to ash over a couple of days... can't get the pot too hot or it'll break, you know. The funeral pot then becomes a fertilization pot... its filled to the top with water, and then the community adds eggs after they've been mixed with sperm for however long, and they hatch there. The person is thus recycled into dozens of fish when the eggs hatch. The fish are added back to the river or pool or what-have-you, and the circle of life continues. If a person is judged to have undesirable traits, they are laid in pots and buried to their openings, which are covered with painted stone... to be remembered, but not recycled back into the aether.
 
I like it. It's interesting that the Beni are relatively isolated from the rest of the Amazon, they're much closer to the Inca.
 

Hnau

Banned
Yeah, they won't be changed too quickly. I'm wondering if technological divergences will reach them from the river in time for European contact or not... probably they will become divergent, but it'll be like the New England natives in BANW... a few bronze tools and other knick-knackery but no other real changes. I wonder if the Beni would have any trade or communication links at all over the Andes, or if it was an impenetrable barrier... Tiwanaku is so close to the Beni as it is...

I was looking at Mann's ideas on why the Native Americans were so susceptible disease, and he actually asks a Francis Black, a Yale virologist, what would have happened had the Native Americans understood the concept of contagion and been prepared to act on it. Black says that it wouldn't change much... in the long run, viruses were inevitably going to break into quarantined settlements and isolated cultures... the Native Americans would have had to institute a continent-wide cooperative quarantine with the Europeans happy to oblige them for four hundred years in order to keep the mega-deaths from happening. He says that some decent health care would help, but it wouldn't help much. I've also read that the Native American use of sweat lodges and cold water immersion to fight disease weakened some patients and raised mortality rates. It seems like, those cultures exposed to tloggotl and with a good concept of contagion would have a morality rate decrease of only 5% at most, while perhaps the most controlling of states, with a solid functioning disease-prevention and treatment system, could reduce the death rate by 10% to 15%. The Mississippians might approach that level of success, but I don't think too many will.

Andean history is going to diverge rather quickly, actually. Native peoples in Ecuador started building balsa rafts with cotton sails by 700 CE in OTL. It seems like that during the early 10th century they would make contact with the Pacific *Arawaks that are heading south... trade picks up, the Ecuadorians get the improved navigation/naval package which quickly increases their economic and social reach along water, and soon after Ecuador gets bronze tools, and Mesoamerica receives the potato and the llama. Population boom there, earlier than in the original BANW.

Its been said the potato would be accepted much earlier in Europe than in OTL. Why is this so? It arrived in 1570 in OTL, and wasn't adopted widely until the late 1700s, primarily because it was seen as the food of the underclass. The population boom didn't hit until the early 1800s in most parts of Europe. I guess the Native American diseases might kill off enough of the underclasses that more is demanded of the peasant... in return the peasant adopts the potato in order to save labor and stretch the amount of food he can export to the upper classes, and by the time these lower agricultural-production classes normalize and grow into the middle class, the potato might have caught on by then. If we follow that logic... the potato probably enters Spain in about 1530, while by the second outbreak of tloggotl and whatever-else, whenever that was in the original, it grows on the peasantry and all agricultural classes as a tuber fit for human eating, not just for feeding animals. It probably takes a generation to filter through all of that lower classes, and another generation or two to gain popularity amongst the upper classes. Of course, the potato might not have reached full exposure yet throughout Europe... it took the potato twenty years to reach England, Italy, Belgium, Germany, and Austria and thirty-five years to reach France, so we can figure that into the equation. Interesting stuff.
 
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I think the Marajoara would fill the niche of the *Arawak on the Amazon: independent polities focused on the trade, from the river to the outside world. They were part of the Amazonian pre-columbian trade network, so it would be natural for them, with technology diffusion from the *Arawak, to dominate the trade they take part in, instead of the *Arawaks. I'm using the term *Arawak here for the Aracuhaipan/Arapaguan trades/raiders, as the Marajoara most likely would be Arawakan too.

The polities would be patri- or matrilinear, as the *Arawak chiefdoms from the West. Instead of stone monuments, they would build with clay bricks. Most likely they would be later classified within the greater *Arawak chiefdoms, if their ceramic art spread through the Caribbean.
 
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