Give me Liberty or I'll give you Revolution: A Pre-timeline discussion

Ok, this is a pre-timeline discussion thread for my up coming project "Give Me Liberty or I'll Give You Revolution".

Things you can expect to see ITTL
. A Failed American Revolution
. No foreign intervention in ARW
. A Prophecy of Benjamin Franklin
. A Second War of Bavarian Succession
. A Delayed French Revolution
. A 2nd American Revolution
. A French Revolution and a 2nd American Revolution occuring simultaneously.
. A smaller British Empire.
. A Commonwealth of North America
. Lord Protector Andrew Jackson

The exact PoD I'm still working. I originally thought about having the Americans lose at the Battle of Saratoga, but I want to try and find a another less obvious PoD. A couple of the items on the expect to see list are gonna be a little difficult to get accomplished, which is why I posted this thread. I need a war for a War of Bavarian succession in 1799 to convern france enough for them to intervene. I was thinking that it would start as an Austro-Prussian conflict. Prussia appeals to Britain or Austria appeals to France, which drives the other(France or Britain) to intervene on the otherside. Eventually we get a 7 years war-esque style conflict in Europe, with a "Spanish and Indian" War in North America. This war is supposed to be part of the build up to the 2nd American Revolution, just as the French and Indian war helped lead to the 1st Revolution.

So what do all of you think so far? How can we get France to be concerned enough about events happening in Central Europe to get involved in a war of Bavarian succession? Are there any other topics you'ld like to see covered ITTL. I plan for this to be my most indepth timeline yet. Like many others I aim for the epicness of Look to the West but often fail, but hopefully aiming for the stars will allow me to land on the moon. Let's get it started.
 
Why not go with the basic PoD of a US loss at Saratoga? I've got a rough TL in my mind that does a lot of what you're talking about with that...

Saratoga is most likely going to be the PoD, but I wanted to see if there were any other non-saratoga PoDs with Potential. Do you have an idea for a war of bavarian succession?
 
I like it!

One thought I've played with - more popularity of French revolutionary ideals in Quebec which, OTL, was pretty uninterested in them. This could have a major effect on an alt-US that includes Canada - like a much tighter Franco-American alliance (a "special relationship").
 
What is the Prophecy of Benjamin Franklin? Is it something like this.
"You cant keep the boot of oppression on the American people for long, eventually they'll push the boot off, and what a situation you'll be in!"
You're welcome to borrow it for the TL if you want.
 
What is the Prophecy of Benjamin Franklin? Is it something like this.
"You cant keep the boot of oppression on the American people for long, eventually they'll push the boot off, and what a situation you'll be in!"
You're welcome to borrow it for the TL if you want.

It will be something to that effect. Here's the basic scene. The French hand Benjamin Franklin over to the British in exchange for not seeking retribution against them for sending supplies to the Americans. Franklin is eventually taken before Parliament in London and put through a show trial, with Parliament serving as the jury and King George III serving as the judge. After Franklin is convicted he is sentenced to death. Before he is sent to the gallows he is allowed his last words in front of Parliament. And then he says something to the effect of what you said, but a bit more lavish.
 
It will be something to that effect. Here's the basic scene. The French hand Benjamin Franklin over to the British in exchange for not seeking retribution against them for sending supplies to the Americans. Franklin is eventually taken before Parliament in London and put through a show trial, with Parliament serving as the jury and King George III serving as the judge. After Franklin is convicted he is sentenced to death. Before he is sent to the gallows he is allowed his last words in front of Parliament. And then he says something to the effect of what you said, but a bit more lavish.
I see, what exactly will he say?
 
It will be something to that effect. Here's the basic scene. The French hand Benjamin Franklin over to the British in exchange for not seeking retribution against them for sending supplies to the Americans.

Yet shortly after the French hanker for a war against Britain? I think this is an inconsistency...
 
How can we get France to be concerned enough about events happening in Central Europe to get involved in a war of Bavarian succession?

It's France. A harder question to answer would be "how can we get France apathetic enough to stay out of a war in central Europe?" Also, you said about "no foreign intervention in the ARW", then you said the French hand over Benjamin Franklin in exchange for being forgiven for their part in the ARW. Surely this suggests that intervention does happen? Or do you just mean no military intervention?

I'm curious about the "smaller British Empire" bit. Protector Andrew Jackson suggests a ARW2 around the time of the ACW. By this time, the Empire was already getting close to its maximum extent with the notable exception of Africa. Now, do you just mean a moderately smaller Empire - I'm guessing Canada is a lost cause for the British TTL, as likely is the British West Indies, and you could reduce the Scramble for Africa - or is the Empire going to go into complete collapse during the ARW2 and, say, lose Africa and other places and essentially end up just hanging onto a couple of the white Dominions and a handful of meaningless islands?
 
It's France. A harder question to answer would be "how can we get France apathetic enough to stay out of a war in central Europe?" Also, you said about "no foreign intervention in the ARW", then you said the French hand over Benjamin Franklin in exchange for being forgiven for their part in the ARW. Surely this suggests that intervention does happen? Or do you just mean no military intervention?

I'm curious about the "smaller British Empire" bit. Protector Andrew Jackson suggests a ARW2 around the time of the ACW. By this time, the Empire was already getting close to its maximum extent with the notable exception of Africa. Now, do you just mean a moderately smaller Empire - I'm guessing Canada is a lost cause for the British TTL, as likely is the British West Indies, and you could reduce the Scramble for Africa - or is the Empire going to go into complete collapse during the ARW2 and, say, lose Africa and other places and essentially end up just hanging onto a couple of the white Dominions and a handful of meaningless islands?

By the non-intervention, I meant non-military intervention. Some countries do supply them rebels with arms, but not to the extent they did IOTL.

No, the second revolution doesn't occur in the mid 19th century, but some time within the first 20 years of the century. The title of Lord Protector is ceremoniously given to Andrew Jackson, but is not retained long after.

The British will lose all of their land in continental North America, along with a couple Islands. Because of 3 simultaneous wars, they will lose most of their holdings in India. Britain will be forced to stay confined to its Island for quite some time, though they will acquire some African colonies.
 
It would be interesting if the 2nd American Revolution is as violent and bloody as the French Revolution.
 
Washington and the part of the American army that escaped the disaster at Long Island being captured instead (not that hard if the British are vigilant enough) would be an interesting POD.

Saratoga going the other way would be hard to make work unless the other elements that went wrong go right (Howe, we're looking at you :rolleyes:).

And that's assuming its possible to make Burgoyne's part work for the sake of discussion.

But by contrast, if the main army is just wiped out - what is that going to do to the ability to continue? Yes there are men who could volunteer and so on and so forth, but you just removed the core of the Continental Army, specifically meaning well Washington himself and officers like Knox (as well as the foundations of the regiments like the constantly-relied on Marbleheaders and the Delaware & Maryland units).

That kind of devastating defeat would put any kind of resistance to the British in the position of Wiley E. Coyote.

In the "Standing in mid air and doesn't realize it until he looks down" situation, to be precise. :D

How are they going to recover from that?

Not sure how the other stuff will come from a failed American Revolution POD - as in, how that will lead to a world where the events necessary occur.

Some of it makes some sense, some of it not so much (collapsing British Empire, for instance).
 
Saratoga is most likely going to be the PoD, but I wanted to see if there were any other non-saratoga PoDs with Potential.

George Washington killed in the French and Indian War.

Charles Lee named commander of Continental Army when the ARW rolls around.

Lee is lax about quarantine and small pox hits Revolutionary troops hard during Boston, but British forced out anyway. Small pox makes the battle costly enough that no attempt is made at Quebec.

Lee decides New York not defendable and decides to just burn the place down.

Charles Lee’s actions unpopular and he is removed. Gates becomes commander.

Gates spends less time in the field and more time playing patty-cake in Philadelphia (he does not winter with troops). Gates tries to defend Philadelphia in ’77 but is soundly trounced by Howe.

British troops from North mop up rebels in New England.

It’s a wrap before ’78.
 
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