Giuseppe Garibaldi: US Major General, Commander of the Army

General Zod

Banned
A little known fact is that Giuseppe Garibaldi once offered his military expertise to Abraham Lincoln during the ACW. What if Lincoln had given him the position that Garibaldi wanted?

I am well aware of the PoD. For starters, this gives Lincoln one truly competent general before Grant, Sherman, Sheridan, and Thomas come to the fore, which will shorten the duration of the ACW significantly but not radically. Besides, the huge popularity of Garibaldi among the British public will bury any temptation from the British government of rescuing the Confederacy even more securely. Garibaldi might likely become a second LaFayette figure to American heritage, which will slightly boost the links between USA and Italy in the long term. Expect a lot of schools, ships, and several American cities titled after Garibaldi.
 
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Closer US-Italy ties may have other effects, especially *after* the Civil War. The US might end up fairly sympathetic to the pre-WWI Central Powers due to OTL pressures from ethnic blocs *and* the recent example of Garibaldi. Whether or not this has any effect beyond that is difficult to see.
 
I see more Italian emigrants to the US, and a greater Italian cultural influence on the US, both due to good US-Italy ties. The two would probably engage in an alliance, possibly being included in OTL's Italy-Germany-AH alliance. This would certainly have effects on the political atmosphere of Europe pre-WW1.
 
I see more Italian emigrants to the US, and a greater Italian cultural influence on the US, both due to good US-Italy ties. The two would probably engage in an alliance, possibly being included in OTL's Italy-Germany-AH alliance. This would certainly have effects on the political atmosphere of Europe pre-WW1.
Unless economic conditions in the South that drove many Italians to emigrate are majorly different, the number of immigrants should be relatively. However, I can see a much less restrictionist policy in the USA regarding Italian immigrants.
 
I see more Italian emigrants to the US, and a greater Italian cultural influence on the US, both due to good US-Italy ties. The two would probably engage in an alliance, possibly being included in OTL's Italy-Germany-AH alliance. This would certainly have effects on the political atmosphere of Europe pre-WW1.
That would be interesting, the US is part of the Triple (or rather Quadruple) Alliance, but unlike TL-191 there is no Quadruple Entente.

So what happens during WWI? Does it play out like TL-191 with the US trying to seize Canada and perhaps other Western British and French lands (Guyana, Belize, etc?)
 
On 21 March 1854, Garibaldi sailed into to the mouth of the River Tyne in north eastern England, as Master of the sailing vessel Commonwealth. The ship had sailed from Baltimore and was flying the American flag when it docked and unloaded its cargo in South Shields. Garibaldi, already a popular figure on Tyneside, was welcomed enthusiastically by the local working class, although the Newcastle Courant reported that he refused an invitation to dine with dignitaries in nearby Newcastle. As a memento of his stay in the area, an inscribed sword, paid for through public subscriptions, was presented to Garibaldi. His grandson carried the sword to South Africa with him almost half a century later, when he volunteered to fight for the British Army in the Boer War. In total, Garibaldi stayed in Tyneside for over a month, departing at the end of April 1854.

Woohoo, that's where I'm from. :D
 
Avoiding foreign entanglements...

That would be interesting, the US is part of the Triple (or rather Quadruple) Alliance, but unlike TL-191 there is no Quadruple Entente.

So what happens during WWI? Does it play out like TL-191 with the US trying to seize Canada and perhaps other Western British and French lands (Guyana, Belize, etc?)


I would be amazed if the USA actually got involved in the European alliance structure because of something like this. "Avoiding foreign entanglements" was the key to the nation's diplomatic mindset. I can't see this changing due to one man's coming over here to assist the USA.

Now, if Italy had been unified earlier, and he'd let an Italian ARMY over here, that would be a diferent story.

If the USA was part of the alliance structure, MASSIVE butterflies. at the end of the Civil War, the Union army was formidable, American factories were more productive than ever before. It would be like waking up a baby gorilla...but that gorilla's going to be an 800 pound one...
 

General Zod

Banned
That would be interesting, the US is part of the Triple (or rather Quadruple) Alliance, but unlike TL-191 there is no Quadruple Entente.

Well, the British can always count on that Japanese Alliance, and could try to woo the Ottomans in the Entente as well.

However, the presence of USA, and a loyal Italy, in the Quadruple Alliance, makes for a very interesting WWI (and a nightmare for the Entente). The USA fleet can give the British Fleet some nasty headaches about enforcing the blockade and/or keeping naval dominance in the North Sea and the Mediterranean. The British will swiftly lose Canada and the manpower and resources it carries. An emboldened Italy can give the French a nasty second front on the Alps, backstab Serbia from Albania and Montenegro, and send her excess manpower to reinforce the Germans in France or Russia. A-H can send all of their troops to beat on Russia, once Serbia is dealt with. The USA can send an expedition corps to munch on Australia, India, and Malaya. The amount of troops London can send to aid France drops significantly.

So what happens during WWI? Does it play out like TL-191 with the US trying to seize Canada and perhaps other Western British and French lands (Guyana, Belize, etc?)

Remove trying from your "seize". The 1914 British Empire has no hope in Hell or Heaven of stopping a determined USA from swamping Canada with troops. The land advantage for the 1914 USA is simply too overwhelming. At last, Canada will be swiftly brought, kicking and screaming, where it belongs. :p
 
Leaving aside the likelihood of the US joining a European alliance structure in the first place, wouldn't the most likely outcome be that both Italy and the US sit out for a while, citing the defensive nature of the pact?

Other diplomatic changes are that the Entente will probably promise Mexico the moon in exchange for a second front in the Americas. Canada is presumably still stomped flat in a hurry, and Mexico is dealt with second.

An interesting note is that the US developed modern submarines first (the Holland) and would likely have a much better submarine arm than Germany if they've been contemplating the possibility of a general war. British naval strategy is going to be a mess, especially if the US bases sub squadrons in the Mediterranean and takes over that theater, allowing the Germans to pack all of their U-boats around the British Isles. Their #1 mission, however, would be to prevent the US and German fleets from linking up in the Atlantic at all costs.
 
I am reminded of a Crowning Post of Awesome from SHWI:

Now a silly one, an AH Challenge.
In 1862, Lincoln appeared to offer some sort of command to Giuseppi Garibaldi who had obtained recent global celebrity due to the
exploits of his Redshirts on Sicily. Garibaldi claimed it was command
of all northern forces, although it may have been a lesser position.
At some point, I believe as early as 1860, the King of Siam offered
Lincoln the use of Siamese war elephants for the Union war effort.
Lincoln politely declined, noting that the Union climate did not favor
the reproduction of the elephant.
Hmm.

Probably requires multiple PODs, but can we get Garibaldi leading a
Siamese war elephant charge against Confederate forces? Better yet,
can we plausibly get Garibaldi leading a Siamese war elephant charge
against Confederate forces?


Ivan Hodes
 
I would be amazed if the USA actually got involved in the European alliance structure because of something like this. "Avoiding foreign entanglements" was the key to the nation's diplomatic mindset. I can't see this changing due to one man's coming over here to assist the USA.

Now, if Italy had been unified earlier, and he'd let an Italian ARMY over here, that would be a diferent story.

If the USA was part of the alliance structure, MASSIVE butterflies. at the end of the Civil War, the Union army was formidable, American factories were more productive than ever before. It would be like waking up a baby gorilla...but that gorilla's going to be an 800 pound one...

I have to reiterate this. Nothing short of an Italian Army is going to wrench the US out of non-interventionism.
 

General Zod

Banned
I have to reiterate this. Nothing short of an Italian Army is going to wrench the US out of non-interventionism.

What do you mean, numberswise, by Army ? Since an official partecipation of the Italian Army in the ACW is indeed unlikely, but an all-volunteer force of European democrats is indeed possible (much like the International Brigades in SCW), due to the huge prestige of Garibaldi among European republicans and liberal/democratic radicals. Now, if this volunteer corps were mostly Germans and Italians, an heritage of sympathy might sediment in the American public for these nations, even if no official alliance with the CPs is signed.

Now add some international incident sometime in the 1890s-1910s between the USA and the UK or France that fans antipathy for Entente nations in the American public (e.g. a limited war between the USA and the UK over Venezuela in 1894), and a pro-CP US President in 1914-16 (Teddy Roosevelt wins the Republican nomination in 1912 and landslides Wilson into oblivion). This Administration takes offense at the British naval blockade and some incident occurs between the British Navy and US merchant fleets, with loss of US lives. US citizens of German and Italian ethnicity successfully arise sympathy for the CP in the American public. Some skirmish between the UK and US Navies and the Congress DoWs the UK.

I agree it is a rather unlikely development, and it requires multiple PoDs, but a pro-C.P. US intervention in WWI is not entirely outlandish.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Remove trying from your "seize". The 1914 British Empire has no hope in Hell or Heaven of stopping a determined USA from swamping Canada with troops. The land advantage for the 1914 USA is simply too overwhelming. At last, Canada will be swiftly brought, kicking and screaming, where it belongs. :p

This is the same Canada which fully mobilised has an army twice the size of the US?
 
Leaving aside the likelihood of the US joining a European alliance structure in the first place, wouldn't the most likely outcome be that both Italy and the US sit out for a while, citing the defensive nature of the pact?

I agree with this.
And assuming the US still enters on the side of the Entente I guess Italy will too.
 

General Zod

Banned
Leaving aside the likelihood of the US joining a European alliance structure in the first place,

I agree, that would require something like France intervening in the ACW or having a limited war with the Union over Mexico. However, it is still possible to bring the USA in WWI to the CP side even without an official alliance.

wouldn't the most likely outcome be that both Italy and the US sit out for a while, citing the defensive nature of the pact?

Indeed. But it is still quite possible to bring Italy to the CP side if A-H agrees to cede Trento and Trieste (negotiations were underway in early 1915, make them successful if Germany persuades A-H to comply). If that can be done, Italy can be brought in the CP quite easily, they has plenaty of irredentist and colonial cliams against France.

As it concerns the USA, you need a pro-C.P. President (say, Teddy Roosevelt wins the Republican nomination in 1912) who takes offense at the UK naval blockade (much like Madison did in 1812) and some naval incident to escalate tensions between the UK and the USA.

Other diplomatic changes are that the Entente will probably promise Mexico the moon in exchange for a second front in the Americas. Canada is presumably still stomped flat in a hurry, and Mexico is dealt with second.

An Entente Zimmerman telegram ? Oh, that will still bring the USA in the war like a jaggernaut. :D

An interesting note is that the US developed modern submarines first (the Holland) and would likely have a much better submarine arm than Germany if they've been contemplating the possibility of a general war. British naval strategy is going to be a mess, especially if the US bases sub squadrons in the Mediterranean and takes over that theater, allowing the Germans to pack all of their U-boats around the British Isles. Their #1 mission, however, would be to prevent the US and German fleets from linking up in the Atlantic at all costs.

Well, assuming Italy enters the war against France in May-June 1915, and the US anytime in 1915 (let's assume several months for naval tensions between US and UK to escalate), I would deem that for at least a year to an year and half the US land forces are engrossed to conquer and pacify Canada, and Mexico, too. Historically, Mexico was a hotbed of revolutionary unrest in the 1910s, and the trans-border incursions of Pancho Villa did bring the US to an undeclared war with Mexico. If an interventist Administration gets the suspect that an hostile UK might land forces there (as it would be wholly capable to do, differently from Germany OTL), it might well decide to escalate it to a declared war and swamp Mexico with troops, too, to nullify the threat. 1915 USA surely has the military potential to wage a two-front land war on both borders. However, readily-available troops will be entirely engrossed to conquer Canada, and later Mexico. I do not know if in such a war, a Roosevelt Administration would still activate the draft or use a volunteer force as in ACW (at present, I do not know what the OTL stance of Teddy on the draft was). Probably, war which starts with "liberation" of Canada will be rather more popular than one that immediately requires an intervention in Europe (even if such will be obviously necessary later, too). Surely, a lot of volunteers can be recuited among German and Italian Americans.

Anyway, recruiting and training a sufficient expeditionary force to hit the Entente overseas, in addition to the occupation force for Canada (probably the US will meet as much resistance to their conquest from loyalist Canadians as they got in Philippines, even if they are not ever going to relinquish Canada after they got it), will require at least a year.

However, this still quickly deprives the UK of the resources and manpower of Canada.

As it concerns the US Navy, it will be immediately free to act against the British. A part will be necessary to protect the coasts against UK harassment, a part will be necessary to cut communications between Britain and Canada. The rest will be free to support the Germans in the North Sea and the AH/Italians/Ottomans in the Mediterranean. Probably the Entente will be forced to give up the Mediterranean quickly and largely concentrate around the Home Isles to protect their supplies from the combined US-German Fleets. Surely, the ability of the Entente to keep a tight naval blcoakde of the CP commerce will be greately diminished in this scenario.

I do not know if, once Canada will be won, whether the combined US-German fleets would be enough to counterblockade Britain severly enough to starve it into surrender. However, anyway, in about a year, the US Expeditionary Force will be ready to hit the Entente. Where the President is most likely to send them ? They could hit in many different theaters: France, Northern Front, Alps Front, Russia, Poland/Galicia Front, Caucasus Front, UK, India, Egypt, Malaya, open a new Russian Front at Vladivostok (unlikey if Japan is in the Entente)...

The UK has lost Canadaian manpower, and all the troops stationed there, and her ability to relieve France has been significantly, but not radically, diminished. France is facing Germany and Italy with major British support, Russia is facing Germany, A-H, and the OE. Serbia was wiped out in a few months (A-H + Italy + Bulgaria). Bulgaria helped to kill Serbia. Romania is a wild card, might be a cowed neutral, have jumped on the CP side, or entered on the Entente side and be wiped out in a few months. The Entente is probably still standing but somewhat teetering by this point.
 
Though it would be intresting to see the result of a war between the US and Great Britain around 1900, I think that's it's quite clear that if this is a WORLD WAR in which the US fights along with Germany, A-H and Italy, the outcome is almost certainly a victory for the US, no matter who else has sided with the Britich.

IOTL the Central Powers defeated Rusia and were close to defeating France. If only the US had stayed neutral they might have won the Great war (Britain will still preserve their empire, of course; it wouldn't have been and absolute victory). But if the US had been not only neutral but a C.P ally, the victory of the C.P.s would have been a short and complete victory.
 

General Zod

Banned
This is the same Canada which fully mobilised has an army twice the size of the US?

Canada raised 120,000 troops in WWI.

USA raised 1,000,000 troops in WWI.

Conquering Canada will be the absolute priority of the US military in such a war, so they are not going to send any major expeditionary corps overseas until Canada is conquered and mostly pacified. As a conservative estimate, a fully mobilized Canada Army, even taking into account major British reinforcements, will face a fully mobilized US Army at least five-six times superior, over a border far too long to use trench warfare effectively. Goodbye, Dominion. Welcome, US Territory.
 

General Zod

Banned
But if the US had been not only neutral but a C.P ally, the victory of the C.P.s would have been a short and complete victory.

Complete, surely. The UK will lose Canada, and the US, differently from the CPs, has the power projection capability to hit them in Asia, even if it is questionable how much they will use it. Probably at least in Malaya, which is close to their Philippine possessions.

Significantly shorter than OTL, but not home by Christmas. In all likelihood, the entery of Italy and the USA will be delayed to 1915, which allows France to survive the Marna crisis. Then the USA will need time to subdue Canada and train the expeditionary force to Europe. The AH-DE-IT-OE combination still needs a year or two to exaust France, or more likely, Russia to surrender or revolution. Probably, this war is over by 1916 or 1917.

A reverse Versailles conference between Germany, A-H, Italy, the USA, and the Ottomans would be rather interesting. I wonder what kind of peace Teddy Roosevelt would favor for the Entente.
 
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