Gibraltar español!

There was no way any exchange would have occured while Franco was in power. Britain needed a naval base in Gibraltar during World War 2. There is no way Attlee would have done a deal afterwards with Franco. The base was important for Nato so it would have remained. Hitler offered Franco Spain in return for support but Franco was more astute than Mussolini and realised the outcome of the war wasn't obvious in 1940. Franco was a survivor and it is only recently that the extent of his crimes are being acknowledged in Spain

Well, it is clear that recovering Gibraltar in exchange of Morocco does not seem very good idea. It doesn´t get many followers.
About Franco: Andrew, I think that you overestimate him. In fact, Spain was so close to entering the WWII. Franco, in fact, was very keen to enter. The negotiations, however, not succeeded. Personally,I think that Germany saw Spain more like a burden than a help and I think that they could be right, but this is only my perception
 
Remove the epidemics of the XIX century or make the spanish government to prevent the occupation of the isthmus. Without land for an airstrip maybe Britain could ask Spain to exchange Gibraltar for something else in northern Africa, for example Tangiers with a good port and land for a huge base...
 

recidivist

I'm English but have lived in Spain for a number of years. My take on current attitudes is that most Spaniards don't give much thought to Gibraltar at all (though some of my friends pull my leg over it from time to time). Interestly, they cannot see a parallel between Gibraltar and Cueta or Melilla, two enclaves in North Africa that are Spanish. While the PP (centre/conservative party) pays lip service to the 'return of Gibraltar', the only strident parties I have come across are the tiny fascist ones, such as “Falange Auténtica” and “Falange Española de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional-Sindicalista” and I only got to know of those through the odd poster in large cities. The recent Córdoba agreement between the UK, Spain and Gibraltar is indicative of the current approach.

As for Gibraltar, yes the vast majority are ethnically Spanish and speak Spanish most of the time (though confusingly at times English and Spanish is mixed in a sentence!). I don't know how the referred to tax status affects the daily life of the average Gibraltarian. Comparing daily living prices on the Rock with those in Spanish hypermarkets (Eroski, Carrefour etc) my wife tells me that it's marginally cheaper in Spain. Of course, the cigarettes and spirits are cheaper in Gibraltar. It's less than 2 hours drive for us to Gibraltar and we tend to go there a couple of times a year (usually when we have visitors from the UK or USA). Actually, I'm not that enamoured of the place.

Gibraltarians I know say that after the Franco antics of border closing etc they just don't trust Madrid governments. Hopefully, time will mellow those memories. Then again, as Joaquin my neighbour said on the topic last night, "Does it really matter now that we have the European Union?"
 
Interestly, they cannot see a parallel between Gibraltar and Cueta or Melilla, two enclaves in North Africa that are Spanish.

Probably because I am Spanish I do see a clear difference. If you look at the map and you see Gibraltar, Ceuta and Melilla, you may think "hey! What is the difference? They both are tiny specks of land surrounded by another country". If you check the history, you see the difference there:

Ceuta, in the former roman province of Hispania Tingitana (later Byzantine and then Visigoth), was the hometown of the mythic "Conde Don Julián" that allowed the Arabs to enter in the Iberian Peninsula. For seven centuries it belonged to Islamic powers, most of the times based in the Iberian Peninsula, then it was taken by Portugal (even before Spain did ever exist) and during the hispano-potuguese union in the XVI and XVII it was incorporated into Spain. When Portugal got its independence again Ceuta chose to continue as a Spanish possession. The history of Melilla is very similar but it is reoccupied (it had been abandoned) by Castille in the XV century before Spain exists.

Gibraltar was taken during the Spanish Succession War by the English that backstabbed their Spanish and Dutch allies by capturing and keeping it. The treaty of Utrecht did give the possession of Gibraltar to England with the condition that in case that England did not want to keep it Gibraltar would be turned back to Spain (nothing similar in the case of Ceuta and Melilla, neither in the juridical status nor in the way it was captured). Then you have the discussion on the isthmus status (and the airfield), the territorial waters (according to the Utrecht Treaty it was just the town of Gibraltar without territorial waters), the fact that the original gGbraltarians had to move to a new population called La Linea…

In my opinion Spain should concentrate on the isthmus question and the waters and leave the new Gibraltarians and the monkeys as a touristy curiosity.
 
Probably because I am Spanish I do see a clear difference. If you look at the map and you see Gibraltar, Ceuta and Melilla, you may think "hey! What is the difference? They both are tiny specks of land surrounded by another country". If you check the history, you see the difference there:

Ceuta, in the former roman province of Hispania Tingitana (later Byzantine and then Visigoth), was the hometown of the mythic "Conde Don Julián" that allowed the Arabs to enter in the Iberian Peninsula. For seven centuries it belonged to Islamic powers, most of the times based in the Iberian Peninsula, then it was taken by Portugal (even before Spain did ever exist) and during the hispano-potuguese union in the XVI and XVII it was incorporated into Spain. When Portugal got its independence again Ceuta chose to continue as a Spanish possession. The history of Melilla is very similar but it is reoccupied (it had been abandoned) by Castille in the XV century before Spain exists.

Gibraltar was taken during the Spanish Succession War by the English that backstabbed their Spanish and Dutch allies by capturing and keeping it. The treaty of Utrecht did give the possession of Gibraltar to England with the condition that in case that England did not want to keep it Gibraltar would be turned back to Spain (nothing similar in the case of Ceuta and Melilla, neither in the juridical status nor in the way it was captured). Then you have the discussion on the isthmus status (and the airfield), the territorial waters (according to the Utrecht Treaty it was just the town of Gibraltar without territorial waters), the fact that the original gGbraltarians had to move to a new population called La Linea…

In my opinion Spain should concentrate on the isthmus question and the waters and leave the new Gibraltarians and the monkeys as a touristy curiosity.


Despite what Condottiero says, which is entirely true, in fact many Spaniards believe they have no right to reclaim Gibraltar while we continue to Ceuta and Melilla (I find myself among them) an despite what recidivist says the fact that recidivist says only one thing: there are 20,000 companies in that rock. If Gibraltar get no profit, why are 20,000 enterprises in this rock?
(I do not know the exact figures, I am not from there, perhaps more than 20,000)
 
And not forgetting of course that both countries are in the EU. Since then I do not intend to recover Gibraltar, only speculate on how we could have done in this century. We were pretty close in 1727, so I guess it was too easy to make before 1900, je, je.

And besides, I WANTED TO GET RID OF MOROCCO.
Seriously, is in the same position. Then there is what sets Condottiero, and despite what I have read here, seems to have been a kind of negotiation between France and England (you leave the Maghreb and I left Sudan (I suppose that all of you know Fashoda)), and it seems that Tangiers have had some interest for the British , is Morocco, to say that an imperialistic country like England would not be interested in Morocco... but I don´t know, you are the British, I imagine that you shall know more than I do on that subject

BE HAPPY!!!
 

recidivist

despite what recidivist says the fact that recidivist says only one thing: there are 20,000 companies in that rock. If Gibraltar get no profit, why are 20,000 enterprises in this rock?
(I do not know the exact figures, I am not from there, perhaps more than 20,000)

My comment was from the impact on the bulk of the inhabitants. No disputing that registering a company on Gibraltar can have benefits to the company. But as most such companies use Gibraltar just for registration, they create precious little employment, for example, to its inhabitants.

By the way, I am in favour of Spanish sovereignity over the Rock but agree with a PSOE minister that it has to be with the consent of the inhabitants. Not an easy task, but hopefully people (on all sides) will stop quoting the past and move on to the future. Maybe a China/Hong Kong setup could be at least an interim stage?

(I'm having thoughts of a timeline where one result of the events of 1588 was that England retained its independence but ceded the Isle of Wight in perpetuity to Spain :))
 
My comment was from the impact on the bulk of the inhabitants. No disputing that registering a company on Gibraltar can have benefits to the company. But as most such companies use Gibraltar just for registration, they create precious little employment, for example, to its inhabitants.

By the way, I am in favour of Spanish sovereignity over the Rock but agree with a PSOE minister that it has to be with the consent of the inhabitants. Not an easy task, but hopefully people (on all sides) will stop quoting the past and move on to the future. Maybe a China/Hong Kong setup could be at least an interim stage?

(I'm having thoughts of a timeline where one result of the events of 1588 was that England retained its independence but ceded the Isle of Wight in perpetuity to Spain :))

Totally agree with the second, although the idea of Condottiero respect to the Isthmus is great, you can deny that.

Regarding the first, I don´t know ... I think that is not that a guy on the street will be directly benefited by the fact that there are 20,000 companies ghosts there nor a direct benefit from the fact that Swiss banks operate in Switzerland as they do or an Andorran or... a guy from Bermuda. They still have to go to work every day, still have to go to Carrefour ('m not from there, I don´t know how it is down there by the Carrefour), but I get the impression that if you tell them to have to Gibraltar stop being a tax haven they would angry, I get the impression that we would be playing with their pocket. By the way, why UK, the great defender of the free market, the current system and all those things (things, jets or call it as you want ..je, je) allows this kind of territory? I have never understood that

Again apologize for my English, I write it the best I can
 

recidivist

TBy the way, why UK, the great defender of the free market, the current system and all those things (things, jets or call it as you want ..je, je) allows this kind of territory? I have never understood that

Again apologize for my English, I write it the best I can

Brits take a quite relaxed approach to their 'outposts'. They even let the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands have their own coinage and postage stamps, unlike Spain and the Canarias. Somebody once said that after the American War of Independence "Britain lost an Empire and then over the next century or so accidentally acquired another."

¡ Su inglés es bueno !
 
Brits take a quite relaxed approach to their 'outposts'. They even let the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands have their own coinage and postage stamps, unlike Spain and the Canarias. Somebody once said that after the American War of Independence "Britain lost an Empire and then over the next century or so accidentally acquired another."

¡ Su inglés es bueno !
In fact, Canarias (Ceuta and Melilla are in the same situation) aren´t exactly tax havens.
In custom taxes they work like independent countries. Something like if they want to export something to the peninsula, they have to go through customs. There could buy a video game and I imagine that or they would say anything to you or you would have to hide it in luggage but if you purchase a hundred... or you pass through customs or you spend in jail, what you prefer...

and moi amable pola súa parte (it´s gallician)
 

recidivist

In fact, Canarias (Ceuta and Melilla are in the same situation) aren´t exactly tax havens.
In custom taxes they work like independent countries. Something like if they want to export something to the peninsula, they have to go through customs. There could buy a video game and I imagine that or they would say anything to you or you would have to hide it in luggage but if you purchase a hundred... or you pass through customs or you spend in jail, what you prefer...

and moi amable pola súa parte (it´s gallician)

I was thinking of the political/governmental integration of the Canarias with mainland Spain rather than taxation.

So, you are a Gallego? I live in la Provincia de Sevilla, Andalucia - about as far from Galicia as possible in Spain!
 
I must apologize for recovered an old thread. I recently read this in a spanish forum:
Se cuenta una anécdota entre un diplomático español y uno inglés que no se si será cierta a propósito de la devolución por los británicos de Hong Kong a China. El español le preguntó al inglés que si habían devuelto ese territorio a los chinos cuándo devolverían Gibraltar a España. El inglés le contestó que cuando España tuviera un ejército como el chino.​
There is an anecdote from a Spanish diplomat and an English that is not certain whether it will be about the return of British Hong Kong to China. The Spanish asked the English if they had returned that territory to the Chinese, when the English return Gibraltar to Spain. The English replied that when Spain had an army like the Chinese.

I think I've translated more or less...well

I repeat, sorry by recovering such an old thread, but I think that the comment is funny. Well, I don´t know if I should ask this (I find even extravagant) but, what the hell, here I go... WI Spain had an army (no, I will not write like the Chinese, I will not pass the line) comparable to English at some point in the last two centuries and, of course in a democratic Spain? (I don´t want a war, only a "pact" similar to Chinese)​
 
I think most in this thread are going about this the wrong way. It's pretty clear that the UK in the 20th century would not relinquish Gibraltar under threat or actual conflict unless devastatingly defeated. Given that a few nations have tried a couple times to inflict such a defeat and failed, we might want to approach this from a different direction.

Upthread, it was mentioned that there have been several governments in the UK that would have been willing to accept Spanish absorption of Gibraltar, but for the staunch objections of the Rock's inhabitants in repeated referenda.

So, instead of conquering Gibraltar by force, how might Spain gain the confidence of its people? 20th Century Britain is far less likely to object to such a transfer if the people of Gibraltar themselves are in favor, after all.
 
It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to most Gibraltarians who governed them nationally nowadays, Spain or the UK,


Actually, it would. Unlike Britain, Spain would enforce the laws that prevent places from becoming money-laundring paradises and smuggling coves, thus cutting one of the colony's main income sources. If Spain ever wants to change anything in Gibraltar, it needs to stop whining in an unwinnable debate about sovereignity, and deal with two issues that the british refuse to adress because they know they don't have the moral high ground: the terrains near the border that were unlawfully acquired in 1909; and the fact that Gibraltar is the biggest centre of illegal economical activities in the western Mediterranean.
 
So, instead of conquering Gibraltar by force, how might Spain gain the confidence of its people? 20th Century Britain is far less likely to object to such a transfer if the people of Gibraltar themselves are in favor, after all.
The first could be eradicating of tax havens but I think that is a brit issue, not spanish, then a democratic and stable Spain. Democratize Spain is more extravagant than to make Spain a significant military power in the last two centuries, and to make the two things at the same time is even more difficult but I really think that is not impossible. The Republic or even the Glorius Revolution in 1868 could make Spain a democratic country stable and developed, quite attractive to most of Gibraltar but the real great problem is that this never happens so I agree:
I think most in this thread are going about this the wrong way
the "recent" history of Spain not allows the feasible transfer of Gibraltar, nor by war or pact (my choice), so how could we change the history?
It's pretty clear that the UK in the 20th century would not relinquish Gibraltar under threat or actual conflict unless devastatingly defeated. Given that a few nations have tried a couple times to inflict such a defeat and failed, we might want to approach this from a different direction.
I do not want a war but the pact with the Chinese, by wich China
recovers Hong Kong peacefully, was only possible because a confrontation with the Chinese would be a devastantingly defeat with or without the opinion of Hong Kong. In fact, despite this:
it was mentioned that there have been several governments in the UK that would have been willing to accept Spanish absorption of Gibraltar
the UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would still be the UK of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Calais, so are you sure that we don´t need a military strong Spain to reach a pact? because I only want to get a pact, not a military Spain nor a confrontation​
 
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