RamscoopRaider
Donor
Glad you caught that typo, the Admiral class is scheduled for late 1919-early 1920
Edit: as for Renown her refit at Rosyth to add horizontal armor was in 1917 as OTL over about 2 months
Last edited:
Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars
- Thread starter RamscoopRaider
- Start date
Edit: as for Renown her refit at Rosyth to add horizontal armor was in 1917 as OTL over about 2 months
Part 2-7
RamscoopRaider
Donor
…1917 was a chaotic year for the American War effort. The United States was unprepared for the magnitude of the commitment it embarked on. The vast industrial potential of the United States was poorly managed by a government that had not planned for this effort, nor had experience in doing so for over half a century.
Vast numbers of contracts were let out to massively expand war production, often to companies that had no relevant experience or were already at full capacity. Building the capacity to fill those contracts would take time and money. However the latter was in short supply as the government primarily followed the contracting practices of the day where payment would be mostly provided on delivery. This meant that companies had to borrow money to start or expand production, at a time when the markets for lending were almost tapped out by the war and many other companies were doing so. This imposed unnecessary delays on the expansion of the war effort.
This was made worse by mismanagement of the national transportation system. The massive expansion of construction placed massive amounts of extra demand on the American railroad system. Coordination was almost nonexistent and thousands of loaded railcars of raw materials and finished goods sat idle, jamming up railway yards all along the eastern seaboard for months. This too contributed to the American war production being far below what it could have been…
…American troops began arriving in force in the fall of 1917. Even before then clashes had begun between the Entente and American leadership over their deployment. The British and French were united in their urging that the American troops going to France should be dispersed and fight under their command. It was desired that the American forces be broken up and the Americans used as individual replacements in their formations to bring them up to strength. This was flatly refused both by General Pershing and President Wilson.
The French, recognizing the difficulties of integrating Anglophone Americans into their Francophone units, were quickly willing to compromise by suggesting that American units be integrated into theirs, companies into battalions, battalions into regiments or regiments into divisions. The British were more stubborn in their desires. Both sides argued that the Americans were unprepared for a modern war and needed to be directed by experienced leadership. Both applied pressures to force the Americans to accept their suggestions.
The American leadership, political and military, as well as the American public, viewed this as an attempt to use American doughboys as cannon fodder. The public was outraged and the papers demanded that Wilson hold firm in his insistence on an independent American Expeditionary Force. Anglo-French entreaties to send more riflemen and fewer support troops over, at a time when they were both reducing the number of riflemen in their forces in favor of increased numbers of artillery and rear area troops, merely confirmed this view. Wilson stayed adamant in one of his unequivocally good decisions, American forces would fight under American command.
The French realized relatively quickly that Wilson and Pershing would not be swayed at the time and decided to bide their time. The British were more stubborn and insisted that since many of those troops were coming over on British ships, that some, if not all should be under their command and control. Wilson then threatened British access to American credit and suggested that if they did not find room for American troops, Wilson would make room by stopping some of their orders in the US. The British were forced to back down and grudgingly accepted that the Americans would be an independent force. As a compromise some American formations would be attached to British and French forces on a temporary training basis…
The creation of a separate American Expeditionary Force command complicated the command structure on the Western Front. Already there had been considerable difficulties between the separate French and British command structures. With the addition of a third, American, command structure this was made worse. It was soon determined that the ad hoc nature of previous international military coordination was insufficient and on November 7th 1917 a Supreme War Council was formed. Proposals were made to have a combined reserve, a joint general staff and a supreme commander, but due to the actions of Lloyd George, Marshal Haig and General Petain delayed that until after the start of the German Spring Offensive…
…Ludendorff planned on his Spring Offensive to open with an assault on the British near St. Quentin. He would hit the British with 76 divisions, against 29 British divisions, at the seam between the 5th and 3rd British armies. His goal was to punch a hole in the British lines so that they could be outflanked and forced to withdraw to the Channel Ports or be destroyed. If the first offensive did not work, then follow up offensives would follow to achieve that goal. The opening attack was codenamed Michael, after the Archangel, and would begin on March 23rd…
-Excerpt from The Loss of Innocence: America in the Great War, Harper & Brothers, New York 2014
…The Austrians were pressured to launch their own offensive against the Italians concurrently with the German attack in Flanders. Conrad did not wish to do so, too much of the Austrian Army’s bridging equipment was being used to supply their forces in their current positions. He did not believe that the Austrian Army would be ready to attack until June, when sufficient bridging equipment would be available. However German pressure proved too great for Kaiser Karl to bear and Conrad was ordered to launch his attack on the 23rd of March, to coincide with the German one.
The shortage of equipment forced Conrad to plan his assault on the narrower Mincio River against the British and French, rather than across the wider Po against the still recovering Italians. Furthermore he would be restricted in the number of places he could attack by the lack of bridging equipment…
…The Middle Eastern Theater proven the only military bright spot for the Entente during 1917. Baghdad had fallen to the British in early March. In late March Gaza had fallen to the British as well. From then a stalemate lasted until August. Then the insistence of Enver Pasha on withdrawing troops facing the British to reinforce the Caucuses after the Kerensky offensive provided an opportunity. In late September the British launched an assault at Kuj and shattered the weakened Ottoman defensive lines.
British cavalry turned the retreat into a rout and inflicted 20,000 casualties on the Ottomans. In mid to late October the Ottomans attempted to stop the British in the Judean Hills. The Ottomans managed to hold out until November 1st, but suffered 10,000 more casualties and ultimately lost. Jerusalem fell on November 10th. This was the most significant British victory so far and proved a balm to morale that had suffered heavily.
Ottoman attempts to retake Jerusalem were fought off in December to minor losses on both sides. In January Allenby furthered advanced north, capturing Jericho and the Jordan valley from the Ottomans. After capturing the Tell Asur hill in February Allenby launched at attack on Amman, which established bridgeheads but ultimately failed to take the town. Instead of launching a second attack Allenby instead attacked to the north and unhinged the Ottoman position around Mt. Gilboa, capturing the Jezreel Valley in mid-March. This caused the Ottoman commander in the theater to be sacked and replaced with the German Erich von Falkenhayn, who had arrived with German reinforcements.
Von Falkenhayn pulled back his troops from Amman to Der’a and dug in on a Haifa-Nazareth-Samakh-Der’a line. Against the strengthened defensive line Allenby was forced to pause for reinforcements, ones that would not arrive until fall…
-Excerpt from European Wars for Americans, Harper & Brothers, New York, 2004
Vast numbers of contracts were let out to massively expand war production, often to companies that had no relevant experience or were already at full capacity. Building the capacity to fill those contracts would take time and money. However the latter was in short supply as the government primarily followed the contracting practices of the day where payment would be mostly provided on delivery. This meant that companies had to borrow money to start or expand production, at a time when the markets for lending were almost tapped out by the war and many other companies were doing so. This imposed unnecessary delays on the expansion of the war effort.
This was made worse by mismanagement of the national transportation system. The massive expansion of construction placed massive amounts of extra demand on the American railroad system. Coordination was almost nonexistent and thousands of loaded railcars of raw materials and finished goods sat idle, jamming up railway yards all along the eastern seaboard for months. This too contributed to the American war production being far below what it could have been…
…American troops began arriving in force in the fall of 1917. Even before then clashes had begun between the Entente and American leadership over their deployment. The British and French were united in their urging that the American troops going to France should be dispersed and fight under their command. It was desired that the American forces be broken up and the Americans used as individual replacements in their formations to bring them up to strength. This was flatly refused both by General Pershing and President Wilson.
The French, recognizing the difficulties of integrating Anglophone Americans into their Francophone units, were quickly willing to compromise by suggesting that American units be integrated into theirs, companies into battalions, battalions into regiments or regiments into divisions. The British were more stubborn in their desires. Both sides argued that the Americans were unprepared for a modern war and needed to be directed by experienced leadership. Both applied pressures to force the Americans to accept their suggestions.
The American leadership, political and military, as well as the American public, viewed this as an attempt to use American doughboys as cannon fodder. The public was outraged and the papers demanded that Wilson hold firm in his insistence on an independent American Expeditionary Force. Anglo-French entreaties to send more riflemen and fewer support troops over, at a time when they were both reducing the number of riflemen in their forces in favor of increased numbers of artillery and rear area troops, merely confirmed this view. Wilson stayed adamant in one of his unequivocally good decisions, American forces would fight under American command.
The French realized relatively quickly that Wilson and Pershing would not be swayed at the time and decided to bide their time. The British were more stubborn and insisted that since many of those troops were coming over on British ships, that some, if not all should be under their command and control. Wilson then threatened British access to American credit and suggested that if they did not find room for American troops, Wilson would make room by stopping some of their orders in the US. The British were forced to back down and grudgingly accepted that the Americans would be an independent force. As a compromise some American formations would be attached to British and French forces on a temporary training basis…
The creation of a separate American Expeditionary Force command complicated the command structure on the Western Front. Already there had been considerable difficulties between the separate French and British command structures. With the addition of a third, American, command structure this was made worse. It was soon determined that the ad hoc nature of previous international military coordination was insufficient and on November 7th 1917 a Supreme War Council was formed. Proposals were made to have a combined reserve, a joint general staff and a supreme commander, but due to the actions of Lloyd George, Marshal Haig and General Petain delayed that until after the start of the German Spring Offensive…
…Ludendorff planned on his Spring Offensive to open with an assault on the British near St. Quentin. He would hit the British with 76 divisions, against 29 British divisions, at the seam between the 5th and 3rd British armies. His goal was to punch a hole in the British lines so that they could be outflanked and forced to withdraw to the Channel Ports or be destroyed. If the first offensive did not work, then follow up offensives would follow to achieve that goal. The opening attack was codenamed Michael, after the Archangel, and would begin on March 23rd…
-Excerpt from The Loss of Innocence: America in the Great War, Harper & Brothers, New York 2014
…The Austrians were pressured to launch their own offensive against the Italians concurrently with the German attack in Flanders. Conrad did not wish to do so, too much of the Austrian Army’s bridging equipment was being used to supply their forces in their current positions. He did not believe that the Austrian Army would be ready to attack until June, when sufficient bridging equipment would be available. However German pressure proved too great for Kaiser Karl to bear and Conrad was ordered to launch his attack on the 23rd of March, to coincide with the German one.
The shortage of equipment forced Conrad to plan his assault on the narrower Mincio River against the British and French, rather than across the wider Po against the still recovering Italians. Furthermore he would be restricted in the number of places he could attack by the lack of bridging equipment…
…The Middle Eastern Theater proven the only military bright spot for the Entente during 1917. Baghdad had fallen to the British in early March. In late March Gaza had fallen to the British as well. From then a stalemate lasted until August. Then the insistence of Enver Pasha on withdrawing troops facing the British to reinforce the Caucuses after the Kerensky offensive provided an opportunity. In late September the British launched an assault at Kuj and shattered the weakened Ottoman defensive lines.
British cavalry turned the retreat into a rout and inflicted 20,000 casualties on the Ottomans. In mid to late October the Ottomans attempted to stop the British in the Judean Hills. The Ottomans managed to hold out until November 1st, but suffered 10,000 more casualties and ultimately lost. Jerusalem fell on November 10th. This was the most significant British victory so far and proved a balm to morale that had suffered heavily.
Ottoman attempts to retake Jerusalem were fought off in December to minor losses on both sides. In January Allenby furthered advanced north, capturing Jericho and the Jordan valley from the Ottomans. After capturing the Tell Asur hill in February Allenby launched at attack on Amman, which established bridgeheads but ultimately failed to take the town. Instead of launching a second attack Allenby instead attacked to the north and unhinged the Ottoman position around Mt. Gilboa, capturing the Jezreel Valley in mid-March. This caused the Ottoman commander in the theater to be sacked and replaced with the German Erich von Falkenhayn, who had arrived with German reinforcements.
Von Falkenhayn pulled back his troops from Amman to Der’a and dug in on a Haifa-Nazareth-Samakh-Der’a line. Against the strengthened defensive line Allenby was forced to pause for reinforcements, ones that would not arrive until fall…
-Excerpt from European Wars for Americans, Harper & Brothers, New York, 2004
Part 2-8
RamscoopRaider
Donor
#81 The Third Battle of Dogger Bank, March 23rd, 1918
Cleaver Bank had by almost any standards been a huge success for the Kaiserliche Marine and they were content to rest on their laurels throughout the rest of 1916 and 1917, rather than risking any of their expensive capital ships in combat once more. By fall of the 1917 that had started to change, the Army had won glory at Riga and Caporetto while the Navy had seemingly done nothing. This did not bode well for the postwar era, when budgets would be tightened compared to the prewar largess. Therefore when the KM learned that the Army was planning a large-scale offensive for the spring they wanted in.
Obviously, they could not directly contribute in a major way. However by launching a raid on the English coast concurrent with the Offensive, they could provide an additional distraction for the Entente high command and amplify the moral blow of the Army’s attack. If they were lucky, they could even bite off a chunk of the Grand Fleet and destroy it or maul the British Battlecruiser Fleet again like at Cleaver Bank. The Kaiser and Ludendorff agreed with the idea and a sortie was authorized to coincide with the start of the offensive.
Compared to Cleaver Bank the HSF had added the more powerful Hindenburg to replace the lost Von Der Tann and added the Battleships Bayern, Baden and Sachsen to replace the lost pre dreadnoughts. As a result the HSF was somewhat more powerful.
Its opposing force had made much bigger changes. The British had added the Battlecruisers Repulse and Renown, as well as the Large Light Cruisers, often considered Light Battlecruisers, Courageous, Glorious and Furious to replace the three lost and one battlecruiser still being repaired. Six American Battleships had joined the Grand Fleet to replace the two lost at Cleaver Bank, though the American ships were slower than those they replaced.
However the British had done many things to improve the quality of their existing ships. Additional horizontal armor was fitted to the battlecruisers on turret tops and over magazines. Shell stockpiles were evaluated with the worst being discarded to avoid the high rate of shell failure seen at Cleaver Bank, new improved shells were in the works but would not arrive for another month. The shortcuts taken in ammunition handling that led to the loss of Lion, Queen Mary and Indomitable were reversed and additional safeguards put into place to prevent ammunition explosions. The 9-foot rangefinders used by most British capital ships, inferior to the German 3m models, along with 15-foot models equivalent to the German ones, were replaced by 25- and 30-foot models that were superior. The German practice of finding the range using a ladder system was adopted to replace the bracket system, and the British battlecruisers were put through additional gunnery training. Finally the signals procedures were overhauled and better standing orders were put into place. In all the ships of the Royal Navy had gotten far deadlier in the time since Cleaver Bank.
The first part of the operation to occur was the sorties of the U-Boats, to form a picket line and mine barrier to try to damage the Grand Fleet, which occurred two weeks prior to the sortie. Preparations started in earnest on March 20th and the patterns of radio traffic were intercepted by the British. Quickly noticing that the traffic mirrored that before Cleaver Bank, the British knew something was up and in late afternoon on the 22nd the Grand Fleet went to sea to preempt the Germans. In the night of the 22nd the High Seas Fleet left the Jade Estuary and the battle was set to begin.
The British reached their positions first, located so that they could intercept a German breakout into the Atlantic, or catch them on their way home from raiding England, with the Battlecruiser fleet positioned south of the Grand Fleet. The Battleships Hercules and Collingwood had been damaged by mines; however they were positioned at the front of the formation due to their obsolescent nature and protected the rest of the Grand Fleet from damage.
The Germans set off in the early hours of the morning, with the town of Grimsby in mind as their target. Around 12:30 two things happened that would change their plans. First the German Battlecruisers ran into three patrolling British destroyers. The British ships were annihilated, but not before they got off a warning. The second was that a German Zeppelin spotted the Grand Fleet. It was quickly chased off by aircraft flown off from the Battleships, but it was able to report the Grand Fleet far south of where it should have been. Once this information was passed on to Admiral Scheer, he ordered the Battlecruisers under Hipper to withdraw, rather than be potentially cut off by the British, while the Battleships of the HSF turned around and slowly started steaming back to Germany.
Around 3:30 the British Battlecruisers under Vice Admiral Pakenham caught sight of the Germans. In order from closest to farthest they were Princess Royal, Renown, Repulse, New Zealand, Indefatigable, Courageous, Glorious and Furious, with the less armored ships held back farther. At almost 4:30 the 15” armed British ships opened fire at extreme range, Renown engaging Derfflinger, Repulse Hindenburg, Courageous Seydlitz, Glorious Lützow and Furious Moltke. After about 15 minutes Princess Royal doubled up on Derrflinger, followed shortly by the 30.5cm armed German ships engaging the lead British vessels. After another 10 minutes the remaining ships engaged.
The British, by virtue of opening fire first and unopposed, found the range first and scored first blood with a 15” hit on Derfflinger. The British scored several more unopposed hits before the first return hit on Repulse from Lützow. The situation was in many ways more similar to the first battle at Dogger Bank, rather than the later battle at Cleaver Bank, with the British clearly having the advantage.
The exchange of fire continued for almost an hour and the British silenced the German guns one by one. They did not have it all their own way, and Princess Royal lost a turret and a 28cm shell scored a direct hit on New Zealand’s bridge, wiping out her bridge crew in a freak shell hit blamed on her Captain adopting a pagan Maori practice of wearing a “magic” grass skirt to battle by the fleet’s chaplains. In general the Germans were taking two or three hits for every one they received, and the British hits hurt more on average.
At around 5:45 the Battleships of the HSF appeared on the horizon, having turned back to rescue Hipper’s Battlecruisers. Pakenham continued to chase the fleeing Germans, hoping to possibly deal a finishing blow in the last moments of the engagement. Scheer ordered his battleships to open fire at extreme range, and once the first 38cm shells started landing nearby Pakenham ordered a withdrawal to outside of the German gunnery range to await the arrival of the Grand Fleet, with only a single 38cm hit striking Repulse, doing minimal damage.
Scheer, once the British battlecruisers turned away, ordered a full speed withdrawal to the German coast, not knowing how far away the Grand fleet was. The Grand Fleet was in hot pursuit but was only overtaking the HSF slowly. It was almost nightfall when they entered visual range, and with darkness coming on and the German home waters increasing close Jellicoe called off the pursuit.
Overall the British had lost 3 destroyers, had two large light cruisers lightly damaged, one battlecruiser lightly damaged, two moderately damaged and two heavily damaged. In exchange the Germans had three battlecrusiers heavily damaged and two more almost crippled, with Lützow grounding herself near the entry to the Jade Estuary and taking into 1919 to be combat ready again. The lighter units on both sides were unable to significantly engage each other, the range having not closed below 15,000 yards. Near the end of the battle the British cruisers were able to engage their counterparts at long range, using their superior director firing to inflict more damage than they received, resulting in 2 German light cruisers moderately damaged, and two more lightly damaged in exchange for one lightly damaged British cruiser. In total the British suffered 650 casualties to the German 1,200. Rather than provide a victory to amplify the moral blow of the Spring Offensive, the Germans had suffered a reverse that mitigated it.
The battle proved the British changes made since Cleaver Bank to be effective in more than reversing the disparity in forces. In fact it could have gone substantially better for the British, HMS Tiger and HMAS Australia were both undergoing routine maintenance at the time and were not present. Had either one been present there is a good chance for one of the German battlecruisers to have been lost, most likely Lützow. Furthermore had the new more effective Green Boy shells been ready a month earlier, it would have been likely that Lützow and Derfflinger would have both been lost at a minimum. Had both occurred it is possible that the German Battlecruisers could have been completely annihilated. However the German battlecruisers lived to fight another day.
The British would commission no more capital ships during the course of the war and would receive no more capital reinforcements from their allies. The Germans by contrast would commission one battleship over the summer and two battlecrusiers at the beginning of the next year, with the HSF reaching its relative peak of strength compared to the Grand Fleet in April 1919…
-Excerpt from 101 Great Naval Battles, American Youth Press, New York 2010
For awhile i thought there would not be an update today due to computer issues, but I managed one, a bit rushed, may need to edit it again later for any issues
Cleaver Bank had by almost any standards been a huge success for the Kaiserliche Marine and they were content to rest on their laurels throughout the rest of 1916 and 1917, rather than risking any of their expensive capital ships in combat once more. By fall of the 1917 that had started to change, the Army had won glory at Riga and Caporetto while the Navy had seemingly done nothing. This did not bode well for the postwar era, when budgets would be tightened compared to the prewar largess. Therefore when the KM learned that the Army was planning a large-scale offensive for the spring they wanted in.
Obviously, they could not directly contribute in a major way. However by launching a raid on the English coast concurrent with the Offensive, they could provide an additional distraction for the Entente high command and amplify the moral blow of the Army’s attack. If they were lucky, they could even bite off a chunk of the Grand Fleet and destroy it or maul the British Battlecruiser Fleet again like at Cleaver Bank. The Kaiser and Ludendorff agreed with the idea and a sortie was authorized to coincide with the start of the offensive.
Compared to Cleaver Bank the HSF had added the more powerful Hindenburg to replace the lost Von Der Tann and added the Battleships Bayern, Baden and Sachsen to replace the lost pre dreadnoughts. As a result the HSF was somewhat more powerful.
Its opposing force had made much bigger changes. The British had added the Battlecruisers Repulse and Renown, as well as the Large Light Cruisers, often considered Light Battlecruisers, Courageous, Glorious and Furious to replace the three lost and one battlecruiser still being repaired. Six American Battleships had joined the Grand Fleet to replace the two lost at Cleaver Bank, though the American ships were slower than those they replaced.
However the British had done many things to improve the quality of their existing ships. Additional horizontal armor was fitted to the battlecruisers on turret tops and over magazines. Shell stockpiles were evaluated with the worst being discarded to avoid the high rate of shell failure seen at Cleaver Bank, new improved shells were in the works but would not arrive for another month. The shortcuts taken in ammunition handling that led to the loss of Lion, Queen Mary and Indomitable were reversed and additional safeguards put into place to prevent ammunition explosions. The 9-foot rangefinders used by most British capital ships, inferior to the German 3m models, along with 15-foot models equivalent to the German ones, were replaced by 25- and 30-foot models that were superior. The German practice of finding the range using a ladder system was adopted to replace the bracket system, and the British battlecruisers were put through additional gunnery training. Finally the signals procedures were overhauled and better standing orders were put into place. In all the ships of the Royal Navy had gotten far deadlier in the time since Cleaver Bank.
The first part of the operation to occur was the sorties of the U-Boats, to form a picket line and mine barrier to try to damage the Grand Fleet, which occurred two weeks prior to the sortie. Preparations started in earnest on March 20th and the patterns of radio traffic were intercepted by the British. Quickly noticing that the traffic mirrored that before Cleaver Bank, the British knew something was up and in late afternoon on the 22nd the Grand Fleet went to sea to preempt the Germans. In the night of the 22nd the High Seas Fleet left the Jade Estuary and the battle was set to begin.
The British reached their positions first, located so that they could intercept a German breakout into the Atlantic, or catch them on their way home from raiding England, with the Battlecruiser fleet positioned south of the Grand Fleet. The Battleships Hercules and Collingwood had been damaged by mines; however they were positioned at the front of the formation due to their obsolescent nature and protected the rest of the Grand Fleet from damage.
The Germans set off in the early hours of the morning, with the town of Grimsby in mind as their target. Around 12:30 two things happened that would change their plans. First the German Battlecruisers ran into three patrolling British destroyers. The British ships were annihilated, but not before they got off a warning. The second was that a German Zeppelin spotted the Grand Fleet. It was quickly chased off by aircraft flown off from the Battleships, but it was able to report the Grand Fleet far south of where it should have been. Once this information was passed on to Admiral Scheer, he ordered the Battlecruisers under Hipper to withdraw, rather than be potentially cut off by the British, while the Battleships of the HSF turned around and slowly started steaming back to Germany.
Around 3:30 the British Battlecruisers under Vice Admiral Pakenham caught sight of the Germans. In order from closest to farthest they were Princess Royal, Renown, Repulse, New Zealand, Indefatigable, Courageous, Glorious and Furious, with the less armored ships held back farther. At almost 4:30 the 15” armed British ships opened fire at extreme range, Renown engaging Derfflinger, Repulse Hindenburg, Courageous Seydlitz, Glorious Lützow and Furious Moltke. After about 15 minutes Princess Royal doubled up on Derrflinger, followed shortly by the 30.5cm armed German ships engaging the lead British vessels. After another 10 minutes the remaining ships engaged.
The British, by virtue of opening fire first and unopposed, found the range first and scored first blood with a 15” hit on Derfflinger. The British scored several more unopposed hits before the first return hit on Repulse from Lützow. The situation was in many ways more similar to the first battle at Dogger Bank, rather than the later battle at Cleaver Bank, with the British clearly having the advantage.
The exchange of fire continued for almost an hour and the British silenced the German guns one by one. They did not have it all their own way, and Princess Royal lost a turret and a 28cm shell scored a direct hit on New Zealand’s bridge, wiping out her bridge crew in a freak shell hit blamed on her Captain adopting a pagan Maori practice of wearing a “magic” grass skirt to battle by the fleet’s chaplains. In general the Germans were taking two or three hits for every one they received, and the British hits hurt more on average.
At around 5:45 the Battleships of the HSF appeared on the horizon, having turned back to rescue Hipper’s Battlecruisers. Pakenham continued to chase the fleeing Germans, hoping to possibly deal a finishing blow in the last moments of the engagement. Scheer ordered his battleships to open fire at extreme range, and once the first 38cm shells started landing nearby Pakenham ordered a withdrawal to outside of the German gunnery range to await the arrival of the Grand Fleet, with only a single 38cm hit striking Repulse, doing minimal damage.
Scheer, once the British battlecruisers turned away, ordered a full speed withdrawal to the German coast, not knowing how far away the Grand fleet was. The Grand Fleet was in hot pursuit but was only overtaking the HSF slowly. It was almost nightfall when they entered visual range, and with darkness coming on and the German home waters increasing close Jellicoe called off the pursuit.
Overall the British had lost 3 destroyers, had two large light cruisers lightly damaged, one battlecruiser lightly damaged, two moderately damaged and two heavily damaged. In exchange the Germans had three battlecrusiers heavily damaged and two more almost crippled, with Lützow grounding herself near the entry to the Jade Estuary and taking into 1919 to be combat ready again. The lighter units on both sides were unable to significantly engage each other, the range having not closed below 15,000 yards. Near the end of the battle the British cruisers were able to engage their counterparts at long range, using their superior director firing to inflict more damage than they received, resulting in 2 German light cruisers moderately damaged, and two more lightly damaged in exchange for one lightly damaged British cruiser. In total the British suffered 650 casualties to the German 1,200. Rather than provide a victory to amplify the moral blow of the Spring Offensive, the Germans had suffered a reverse that mitigated it.
The battle proved the British changes made since Cleaver Bank to be effective in more than reversing the disparity in forces. In fact it could have gone substantially better for the British, HMS Tiger and HMAS Australia were both undergoing routine maintenance at the time and were not present. Had either one been present there is a good chance for one of the German battlecruisers to have been lost, most likely Lützow. Furthermore had the new more effective Green Boy shells been ready a month earlier, it would have been likely that Lützow and Derfflinger would have both been lost at a minimum. Had both occurred it is possible that the German Battlecruisers could have been completely annihilated. However the German battlecruisers lived to fight another day.
The British would commission no more capital ships during the course of the war and would receive no more capital reinforcements from their allies. The Germans by contrast would commission one battleship over the summer and two battlecrusiers at the beginning of the next year, with the HSF reaching its relative peak of strength compared to the Grand Fleet in April 1919…
-Excerpt from 101 Great Naval Battles, American Youth Press, New York 2010
For awhile i thought there would not be an update today due to computer issues, but I managed one, a bit rushed, may need to edit it again later for any issues
Last edited:
Remington 2.0
Banned
What the food/supply situation for the German army and Navy as well as the it's civilian population?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Somewhat better than OTL, thanks to Romania being CP, neutral Greece, looting more of north Italy and being able to extract more from the Ukraine. Average German civilian ration is closer to 1100 calories a day rather than 1,000 of OTL and the Army/navy are relatively better off. So bad but not as bad as OTL
Remington 2.0
Banned
What happened to the imperial Russian family and the Russian aristocracy in TTL since OTL they were almost destroyed or forced to flee Russia
That sounds like a nasty naval battle. However I wonder if the Germans will figure out if the British are reading their codes.
Hmm
The British have been learning since Cleaver Bank.
I wonder what SMS Blücher is doing.
Since that thing is too slow for the Battlecruisers , it's much better being a Flotilla leader and being a Light Cruisers killer.
The modern "1918" U-Boat's have been a complete and utter failure with Mines only being successful in mission killing two Battleships.
The Zeppelin saved the situation from turning ugly.
The British have insane accuracy with their ships hitting guns with insane precision, while only losing one, shooting stationary rocks have really helped.
The British shells had a bigger bite, but that's expected with the 15 inch shells.
The early lighter armored Renown-class BC's for some reason didn't get oofed by the German 11 inch fuse timed shells.
The British Light Battlecruisers didn't turn into a fire ball so Fisher wins again with Speed is amour, good for him.
The boilers rooms of each British ships didn't even get hit at all... yeah, the Germans likewise didn't but their boilers had many compartments to counter that, while the Brits do not.
Not even a single bloody fish hit anyone,
The Torpedo boats didn't even force the RN to break their accuracy to doge the torpedo's.
The German Torpedo Seaplane FF.41AT didn't get the worlds first torpedo's run on the RN.
The Germans didn't get lucky at all with their shells, other than banishing the good luck charms of the New Zealanders, How dare you I might add on doing that.
And the HSF Battleships failed at scoring a good hit.
Overall a very poor performance by the Kaisers Navy, obviously too much beer was used for the gunnery officers.
The weather was unfavorable for the Kaiserliche marine.
God dam it Rule Britannia is getting louder in my ears, I have to get out of here.
The Best news is that the Germans will realize that spamming signals from their harbor's is a recklessly obvious of what's happening and the fact that the GF was exactly at their planed position clearly means that the super secret Naval Codes are not even secured since 1914, it doesn't take a genius to realize that the the GF has always been ready for the HSF to come out and play.
Really am disappointed with the U-Boats of 1918, the 60 cm (23.6") H8 "Super Torpedo's" equipped on Lützow, Hindenburg, the Cöln class and the class of the large TB S 113
didn't memed the RN sadly.
The aircraft carrier I (I'll just call her SMS Ausonia) wasn't ready, that class of ships are really the only hope the Germans have on realistically sinking the Admiral of the Fleet's personal tea set into the North Sea.
My final conclusion of the battle is that if it weren't for the New Zealand’s captain bravely sacrificing himself with his Maori grass skirt against the German 11 inch shell, the RN would have horrendously lost the naval battle with the HMS Renown getting her back broken by a single torpedo and HMS Repulse suffering a turret detonation from the first German salvo in the battle with said turret coming back to earth and destroying the Stern of HMS Princess Royal in a comedic fashion of death and destruction, with 8 U-Boats taking shots at the retreating Battlecruisers, causing even more loses and destruction.
Mark my words the next naval engagement is going to be bad for Britannia with the loss of the piu piu and tiki on HMS New Zealand, how can they win the sea war now with those lost!
Just look at how important it was on the real ship!
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Blucher was like OTL sunk at Dogger Bank in 1915, since it occurred as OTL, I never mentioned it
The U-Boats performed better than they did historically, which produced Bubkis at Jutland
I wouldn't call British accuracy insane, better than OTL Jutland, because of better rangefinders and more target practice, but most of the shells still missed, the difference is they were the ones to find the range early, had three ships unengaged to do an unopposed shoot. if they were insanely accurate, the I Scouting group would not have come home
Even battlecruisers were fairly hard to kill, while slightly more armored than Renown OTL Lion took 16 30.5 and 28cm shells at Dogger Bank, with only 1 dead and 20 wounded.
I never mentioned hit locations at all, given that some ships were capable of over 30 knots, and the slowest 25.5, boiler rooms could have been hit without affecting the battle
The Large Light Cruisers were not engaged much, being at the back of the line, 5 battlecrusiers can really engage only 5 targets at a time, and they engaged the closest ones primarily
The aircraft in question are as OTL assigned to the Baltic
No torpedoes were fired, the battle lines did not get closer than 15,000 yards and the light forces did not detach to engage in a melee this time, as the action was a stern chase as OTL Dogger Bank, and there the light forces only engaged the crippled Blucher
The HSF battleships fired only a handful of salvoes at extreme range and otherwise did not engage, not many hits to be expected
The U-Boats performed better than they did historically, which produced Bubkis at Jutland
I wouldn't call British accuracy insane, better than OTL Jutland, because of better rangefinders and more target practice, but most of the shells still missed, the difference is they were the ones to find the range early, had three ships unengaged to do an unopposed shoot. if they were insanely accurate, the I Scouting group would not have come home
Even battlecruisers were fairly hard to kill, while slightly more armored than Renown OTL Lion took 16 30.5 and 28cm shells at Dogger Bank, with only 1 dead and 20 wounded.
I never mentioned hit locations at all, given that some ships were capable of over 30 knots, and the slowest 25.5, boiler rooms could have been hit without affecting the battle
The Large Light Cruisers were not engaged much, being at the back of the line, 5 battlecrusiers can really engage only 5 targets at a time, and they engaged the closest ones primarily
The aircraft in question are as OTL assigned to the Baltic
No torpedoes were fired, the battle lines did not get closer than 15,000 yards and the light forces did not detach to engage in a melee this time, as the action was a stern chase as OTL Dogger Bank, and there the light forces only engaged the crippled Blucher
The HSF battleships fired only a handful of salvoes at extreme range and otherwise did not engage, not many hits to be expected
Bubkis...?
Well I was obviously being a lot more satirical with the above post, obviously whenever a naval power gets the gunnery range right first it ends with hit after hit after hit and gets quite punishing for the receiving end, but thanks to the less need for range the German Battlecruisers they have the heavier armour to take that punishment.
You are right with the hard to kill Battlecruisers, although Dogger Bank really more of stern chase that wasn't helped by the destruction of the rear turrets of SMS Seydlitz the Germans correctly learned their lessons from that battle and improved the safety of the German Turrets.
The fact the battle is a broadside vs broadside engagement which the means that the Renown-class Battlecruisers broadsides are exposed to proper German return fire, unlike Dogger bank means that the odds of a big ouches moment's happening to the RN were significantly much more likely yet didn't happen, the critics of Lord Fisher's designs are displeased.
This furthers my belief that the HMS New Zealand captain's sacfice was the main reason the RN won the battle, and now without him the last battles are doomed to failure.
The HSF not getting hits is understandable still for the lols I've would've loved a big ouch on the British but oh well, The spirit of the HMS New Zealand's captain was looking after the fleet after all.
Meanwhile the German float planes were flying over the Baltics to monitor the Swedish ships? The Russian Navy is no more longer an threat, they have no point of breaking the peace treaty. Not even sure why they have a point to only fly their OTL while the HSF sorties in the ATL.
Also it's obvious that a lot more torpedo varients of the FF.41AT are being built with the much better state of the economy so that means more squadrons and more planes to fly from, heck even off Turkey.
Now on to speed on the ships...
Royal Navy
(1) Indefatigable class: 25.8 knots, (12 inch 4x2)
(1) Lion class: 27.5 knots, (13.5 inch 4x2)
(2) Renown class: 32 knots, (15 inch 3x2)
(3) Courageous class: 32 knots, (15 inch 2x2)
(Speeeeeeeed is everything)
(New Zealand is very slow)
(Lightly armoured compared to the German counterparts)
(god help us if the engine floods cause we are doomed)
Kaiserliche marine
(1) Moltke class: 25.5 knots (11 inch 5x2)
(1) Seydlitz : 26.5 knots, (11 inch 5x2)
(3) Derfflinger class: 26.5 knots (12 inch 4x2)
(Has timed fused shells, can be devastating to a Battlecruiser)
(More armoured)
(Can easily deal with engine flooding)
(awful at escaping undamaged)
(could brute force itself into the RN Battlecruisers but some ships would be lost)
Just comparing the speeds of the ships as of now.
Royal Navy
(1) Indefatigable class: 25.8 knots, (12 inch 4x2)
(1) Lion class: 27.5 knots, (13.5 inch 4x2)
(2) Renown class: 32 knots, (15 inch 3x2)
(3) Courageous class: 32 knots, (15 inch 2x2)
(Speeeeeeeed is everything)
(New Zealand is very slow)
(Lightly armoured compared to the German counterparts)
(god help us if the engine floods cause we are doomed)
Kaiserliche marine
(1) Moltke class: 25.5 knots (11 inch 5x2)
(1) Seydlitz : 26.5 knots, (11 inch 5x2)
(3) Derfflinger class: 26.5 knots (12 inch 4x2)
(Has timed fused shells, can be devastating to a Battlecruiser)
(More armoured)
(Can easily deal with engine flooding)
(awful at escaping undamaged)
(could brute force itself into the RN Battlecruisers but some ships would be lost)
Just comparing the speeds of the ships as of now.
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RamscoopRaider
Donor
Bubkis, nothing at all
The British ships also have more powerful guns, which generally canceled out the heavier German armor when the British had decent shells
Again I stated this was a stern chase like Dogger Bank
That is where those floatplanes were deployed in OTL, all 5-9 of them, save the ones in Austria. I would say it is not obvious, OTL they didn't build very many of them, don't really see why they would build many more of them, rather than use the resources for more land based aircraft, the war is not really a naval one when all is said and done
So it was a stern chase battle and not a redux of the Battlecruiser battle at Jutland, no wonder the Germans got chewed and failed to score any punishing hits on the lighter armoured adversaries.
(This post got delayed by the internet dieing on me).
Part 2-9
RamscoopRaider
Donor
…The Austro-Hungarians had rushed to prepare their assault for the same day as the German attack in Flanders. Unlike the meticulous planning for Caporetto with a well prepared assault by well practiced troops at a place of their choosing against an enemy weak point, the attack on the Mincio was a hurried affair. The Austrians had been able to comb their best troops into specialized stromtrooper battalions, in the German model, but otherwise were not particularly prepared for the attack. Rather than hitting a weak point they were attacking a strongly held river line manned by the best troops in the Italian Peninsula, at a number of points limited by their supply of bridging equipment.
What was worse for them was that the Entente learned of the coming offensive from various deserters from the Slavic regiments of the Austro-Hungarian Army. Not only did they know roughly where it was coming, but down to the hour it was going to occur. The British and French troops holding the Mincio were thus well prepared to deal with the Austrian attack.
On March 23rd at 3:00 in the Morning Entente guns opened up all along the Mincio front, targeting the forward trenches where the Austro-Hungarian Stormtroopers were forming up. Austrian guns responded, but they were on the back foot and forced to split between silencing enemy guns and performing the preparatory bombardment. Despite the heavy casualties they took the Austrian Stormtroopers launched their assault as scheduled at 3:30, following a curtain of gas and a short, sharp but diminished preparatory barrage.
They crossed the river in small boats into the teeth of alerted Franco-British Troops with massed machine guns. Despite this the well trained Assault troops were able to secure multiple lodgements over the river, using submachine guns, cut down machine guns, pistols, grenades and flamethrowers to clear enemy trenches. This cost them heavily. However following up with this would require bridges over the Mincio to move in additional forces.
The Franco-British air superiority allowed them an almost uncontested view of the battlefield. They were quickly able to locate the places where the Austrian Engineers were attempting to throw up temporary bridges and direct heavy guns onto them. Austrian artillery attempted to counter-battery the enemy guns, but lacking aerial reconnaissance and having taken losses from the Entente artillery they were unable to do so. After three days the majority of available Austrian bridging equipment had been destroyed. With the ability to sustain operations across the river gone Conrad called off the assault.
The Austrians had suffered 30,000 casualties in three days and saw their year long stream of victories broken. What was worse was these losses were concentrated in their best trained and best motivated troops, whose loss would be sorely missed in the coming months. Possibly worse than that was the assault effectively neutralized the Austro-Hungarian Army until summer.
In contrast the Entente had taken less than 10,000 casualties. The French and British divisions were able to be withdrawn to reinforce the Western Front in a timely manner, making the primary objective of the offensive a failure. Reconstituted Italian divisions replaced the transferred French and British. The pause in operations forced by the attack allowed the Italians to fortify the area and rebuild the shaky morale of their formations.
By insisting on an attack before the Austrians were ready Ludendorff had unwittingly handed the Entente a victory and quite possibly lost the war. Had Conrad been able to launch a late Spring offensive against the Italians after the Franco-British forces were withdrawn it could have conceivably gone very well for the Austrians. As it was the Italians would have several more months to prepare for the coming storm...
-Excerpt from European Wars for Americans, Harper & Brothers, New York, 2004
I wanted to do Michael today, but computer issues and having to work on my day off. On the bright side I may squeeze out a couple extra updates this week, thanks to some vacation time, may be an extra update for this on Wednesday depending on how nasty Tuesday is for me and how late I'm stuck at the polling place
What was worse for them was that the Entente learned of the coming offensive from various deserters from the Slavic regiments of the Austro-Hungarian Army. Not only did they know roughly where it was coming, but down to the hour it was going to occur. The British and French troops holding the Mincio were thus well prepared to deal with the Austrian attack.
On March 23rd at 3:00 in the Morning Entente guns opened up all along the Mincio front, targeting the forward trenches where the Austro-Hungarian Stormtroopers were forming up. Austrian guns responded, but they were on the back foot and forced to split between silencing enemy guns and performing the preparatory bombardment. Despite the heavy casualties they took the Austrian Stormtroopers launched their assault as scheduled at 3:30, following a curtain of gas and a short, sharp but diminished preparatory barrage.
They crossed the river in small boats into the teeth of alerted Franco-British Troops with massed machine guns. Despite this the well trained Assault troops were able to secure multiple lodgements over the river, using submachine guns, cut down machine guns, pistols, grenades and flamethrowers to clear enemy trenches. This cost them heavily. However following up with this would require bridges over the Mincio to move in additional forces.
The Franco-British air superiority allowed them an almost uncontested view of the battlefield. They were quickly able to locate the places where the Austrian Engineers were attempting to throw up temporary bridges and direct heavy guns onto them. Austrian artillery attempted to counter-battery the enemy guns, but lacking aerial reconnaissance and having taken losses from the Entente artillery they were unable to do so. After three days the majority of available Austrian bridging equipment had been destroyed. With the ability to sustain operations across the river gone Conrad called off the assault.
The Austrians had suffered 30,000 casualties in three days and saw their year long stream of victories broken. What was worse was these losses were concentrated in their best trained and best motivated troops, whose loss would be sorely missed in the coming months. Possibly worse than that was the assault effectively neutralized the Austro-Hungarian Army until summer.
In contrast the Entente had taken less than 10,000 casualties. The French and British divisions were able to be withdrawn to reinforce the Western Front in a timely manner, making the primary objective of the offensive a failure. Reconstituted Italian divisions replaced the transferred French and British. The pause in operations forced by the attack allowed the Italians to fortify the area and rebuild the shaky morale of their formations.
By insisting on an attack before the Austrians were ready Ludendorff had unwittingly handed the Entente a victory and quite possibly lost the war. Had Conrad been able to launch a late Spring offensive against the Italians after the Franco-British forces were withdrawn it could have conceivably gone very well for the Austrians. As it was the Italians would have several more months to prepare for the coming storm...
-Excerpt from European Wars for Americans, Harper & Brothers, New York, 2004
I wanted to do Michael today, but computer issues and having to work on my day off. On the bright side I may squeeze out a couple extra updates this week, thanks to some vacation time, may be an extra update for this on Wednesday depending on how nasty Tuesday is for me and how late I'm stuck at the polling place
This is honestly a odd back and for. The war is going into 1919 but the question how much does either side have left in the tank.
Good luck to you on Tuesday.
Good luck to you on Tuesday.
Given how much longer it takes to bring Germany down the more likely Versailles ITL is going to be worse for the Germans but the will to hold Germany to it will go away as per OTL and lead to an even more pissed off Germany ITL.