Getting UK and France to ally with US after CSA won

Onyx

Banned
In my alt history, the CSA wins of course, but I don't want the Brits and French to ally with them (Since everybody will just groan and say it's another ACW cliche, plus I hate the fact that Britain and France would ally with them).

SO is there any way that I can get the British and French to ally with the US by the turn of the century?
 
What real fact is there that France and Britain will align with the US? There is no fact. There is a lot of fiction, which is from where the cliches come from.

It would be fact that the British, France - and pretty much anybody else - will enter into some sort of agreement with the Confederates. Trade, investments and postal unions are the most likely. There isn't any particular reason that there would be a defensive alliance between any of the three.

There are some issues that will have to be eventually ironed out, slavery being the most important.

Not even conditionalizing how the Confederacy gained its independence there is no reason that Britain and France would not look favourably upon having the US as an ally.
 
Could you get the CSA to ally with Germany (or any other European power rivalling Britain and France)? That would lead pretty much automatically to UK & France palling up with the US
 
Could you get the CSA to ally with Germany (or any other European power rivalling Britain and France)? That would lead pretty much automatically to UK & France palling up with the US

Maybe a skirmish of some sort with Spain over Cuba reveals some weaknesses behind the CS Military and they turn to the Germans (Fresh from a victory of some kind) to aid them? Might be a start.
 

Onyx

Banned
Alright if anyone would correct me, please, it would be fine

- Britain and France remain reluctant of having an alliance with the CSA
- Spain refuses to sell Cuba, and a Spanish-Confederate War, begins, the Confederates ask for the French and British to help, but they refuse (Since France had good ties with them, and the British just wanted to stay out), damaging there relations, the war ends with both sides with heavy casualties. The CSA asks the Prussians for military help, much to the British and French chagrin
- During the Franco-Prussian war, the CSA helps the Prussians by sending them supplies and officers, causing France to severe relations with them
- Britain also leaves relations since the CSA is having closer ties with the Germans
- By the end of the century, Britain and France decide to rekindle relations with the Union

Alright there
 
I want to do something similar in my timeline, too. These are a few thoughts I've had while timeline-planning.

One thing that seems to get overlooked in a lot of CSA-victory TLs is the historic friendship between France and the United States. Assuming significant butterflies don't reach Europe until after the Franco-Prussian War, I see no reason why a restored French Republic wouldn't seek better ties with the USA. Wasn't France very diplomatically isolated after the Franco-Prussian War? If so, an alliance with the USA actually makes more sense than an alliance with the CSA because the USA could actually, you know, do something for France other than sell them cotton. Also, I've read that the USA and Russia had good ties at this time; assuming France and Russia still become allies, this could make the USA and France allies by treaty at least.
 
A full blown military alliance is a bit much to consider, but it's likely that economic ties will resume between them. Britain and France are two of the biggest economies in the world at this time, and the US can scarcely ignore that. But a real alliance is going to have to wait a few generations... if France and Britain are involved in a dire war with Germany or someone else, it's likely the USA will sell supplies, but not join in. About the only way to get the US into a full alliance would be something that threatens the US as much as it does France and Britain (something like the threat of the USSR forcing the western allies into rearming and allying with West Germany)...
 
Alright if anyone would correct me, please, it would be fine

- Britain and France remain reluctant of having an alliance with the CSA
- Spain refuses to sell Cuba, and a Spanish-Confederate War, begins, the Confederates ask for the French and British to help, but they refuse (Since France had good ties with them, and the British just wanted to stay out), damaging there relations, the war ends with both sides with heavy casualties. The CSA asks the Prussians for military help, much to the British and French chagrin
- During the Franco-Prussian war, the CSA helps the Prussians by sending them supplies and officers, causing France to severe relations with them
- Britain also leaves relations since the CSA is having closer ties with the Germans
- By the end of the century, Britain and France decide to rekindle relations with the Union

Alright there

Actually, I can see the US, Britain and (probably) France stopping any Confederate adventures and claims upon Cuba until the issues of slavery is settled. They most likely won't support the idea of expanding slave territory in any way.
 
Even though it wa ASB, CSA: The Movie had The CSA ally with Nazi Germany over the whole "Superior race thing". Now I know that butterflies would not allow The CSA to win and still have a Hitler's Nazi Germany, however there still might be a Germany that is White Supremacist in some ways. If The CSA ally themselves with such a Germany, then their alliance with GB and France will end.
 
In my alt history, the CSA wins of course, but I don't want the Brits and French to ally with them (Since everybody will just groan and say it's another ACW cliche, plus I hate the fact that Britain and France would ally with them).

SO is there any way that I can get the British and French to ally with the US by the turn of the century?

What real fact is there that France and Britain will align with the US? There is no fact. There is a lot of fiction, which is from where the cliches come from.

It would be fact that the British, France - and pretty much anybody else - will enter into some sort of agreement with the Confederates. Trade, investments and postal unions are the most likely. There isn't any particular reason that there would be a defensive alliance between any of the three.

There are some issues that will have to be eventually ironed out, slavery being the most important.

Not even conditionalizing how the Confederacy gained its independence there is no reason that Britain and France would not look favourably upon having the US as an ally.

Nor is there any particular reason why either American republic has to ally itself with any European power. Americans have been up until quite recently very isolationist. I think the most likely scenario is for BOTH nations to pursue a policy of armed neutrality.
 
Nor is there any particular reason why either American republic has to ally itself with any European power. Americans have been up until quite recently very isolationist. I think the most likely scenario is for BOTH nations to pursue a policy of armed neutrality.
I'm generally inclined to agree; the CSA would be no more inclined to seek foreign entanglements in Europe than the US was at the time. The only reason I could see for the CSA to got looking for European allies is if the US is growing belligerant and the CSA doesn't think they can win on their own. Of course, any CSA that wins the Civil War on it's own would probably feel confident of its chances in a re-match with the Union...
 
Is there any reason that France and Britain must be on the same side of any alliance system as you enter the 20th Century? They have more points of contention than reasons to work together. You could always get one to ally with CSA (say France as an extension of their influence in Mexico) and the other to ally with the USA to counter this

And just for fun have a third German centred (but not necessarily Germany centred if you see what I mean) alliance.

3 way alliance systems are fun
 
Is there any reason that France and Britain must be on the same side of any alliance system as you enter the 20th Century? They have more points of contention than reasons to work together. You could always get one to ally with CSA (say France as an extension of their influence in Mexico) and the other to ally with the USA to counter this

And just for fun have a third German centred (but not necessarily Germany centred if you see what I mean) alliance.

3 way alliance systems are fun

That's what I had evolve in my THE BLACK AND THE GRAY timeline. By the time the Great War broke out in 1898, there were three alliance systems... the Atlantic Alliance between Britain and the Republic of Texas; the Entente between France, Russia, the United States and the Republic of Oklahoma; and the Triple Alliance between Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy. The Confederacy was neutral.

When the war broke out, initially it was the Atlantic Alliance vs. The Entente. But after some frantic negotiation, the Triple Alliance joined the Atlantic Alliance to form the Grand Alliance. Various other nations joined both sides during the course of the conflict. The Confederate States was a late entry into the war, finally joining the Grand Alliance after a number of seizures of Confederate ships in the Caribbean by U.S. and French navy ships.
 
British and French "Recognition" of the CSA...

...doesn't , necessarily, mean an alliance.

First, a lot will depend upon the nature of the battlefield situation in, let us say, the summer of 1863.

One can imagine, after a Confederate victory at Gettysburg, that France and Britain recognize the CSA - but it doesn't necessarily follow that either of them will offer more than material aid. It's quite possible that while Britain and France might no longer "respect" the Union blockade, they still might be loath to use their fleets to disperse the Union fleet.

While the Union might fear a two-front land war (i.e. Canada) - it's still by no means clear that the Brits would want to deploy troops. An invasion from the North might well galvanize a faltering Union as much as encourage a quick peace. And in any event, what is the advantage to open warfare for the Brits?

If, the Brits, can divide their fastest growing industrial competitor, the USA, simply by diplomatic recognition, blockade breaking, and an offer to "broker" a peace...Why then must it be a shooting war?

Similarly, other than following Britain's lead, what does France gain by recognizing the CSA? Would French "interests" in Mexico, be any less threatened by a victorious CSA as opposed to OTL's victorious Union?

I think that it would be reasonable to suppose that the CSA's (and Texas') ambitions with respect to Mexico would, after a CSA victory, quickly come into play.

And the need for any "alliance" (or even diplomatic recognition) becomes even less clear if Lee not only wins at Gettysburg, but goes on the capture Washington, and maybe Baltimore too - and even goes on to threaten (perhaps) Philadelphia (a la Ward Moore's "Bring the Jubilee").

The fact is that the CSA's fate, as Lee among many others saw, was ALWAYS dependent on it's prowess on the battlefield - and the extent to which the Union was committed to the fight.

As Shelby Foote put it in Ken Burns' "The Civil War" when asked "Did the South ever have a chance of winning?":

"I think that the North fought that war with one hand behind it's back. At the same time the war was going on...In the spring of 1864, the Harvard-Yale boat races were going on and not a man on either crew volunteered for either the Army or the Navy. They didn't need them. I think if there had been more southern victories, and a lot more, the North would simply have brought that other arm out from behind its back."

Look, one of the pleasures of this forum is to invent scenarios that fit our fancies. And the notion of the CSA, Britain, and France all allied against the Union can be seductive. But if we're going to make it so, we have to really consider how - and not depend on a Turtledove-ex-machina.

Still, it sure would be interesting (and taking - maybe - half-a-page from Turtledove's "Guns of the South") to imagine a Union which conquers Canada while the CSA takes over Mexico. (Perhaps then the Union would "re-invent" itself after such a conquest - sort of the way Britain re-invented itself and it's empire after losing it's 13 North American colonies.)

And if that all happens, then the Brits might well ally with the CSA - while the French ally with the Union.

If so, then, who do Prussia and Russia ally with? Does Spain "sell" Cuba and Puerto Rico to the CSA?

Even so, does Britain seek another war with the Union to regain Canada? (Why, for vengence...?) And, even with an CSA-GB alliance, what is the CSA's motivation to participate in such a war? (For OUR entertainment...?)

And, other than tweaking GB, what is France's motivation to "ally" with the Union? If they've been preempted by the CSA in Mexico (and the Caribbean) - what do they have to gain? Would an alliance with the Union realistically provide a counter-balance to the rise of Prussia? And, even if the French felt it so, what would the Union stand to gain?

For that matter, one of the cliches of ACW alternate history, is that if the CSA had gained nationhood, that long-term and continued enmity between the Federals and the Confederates would necessarily continue.

While I'm sure that they wouldn't necessarily go on to be as friendly as the US and Canada have been in the 20th/21st Century... And, certainly there would likely be border issues, and (maybe) bigger questions about Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, Washington DC, and (particularly) West Virginia.

While it's easy enough to imagine all this leading to a new war - it's also just as possible that the border issues wouldn't necessarily have to be the reason for a new war.

Heck, with the slavery and states right's questions settled (as it were) by Southron independence, it's quite possible to imagine a US-xCanada and a CSA-xMexico-xCuba peacefully coexisting - and both nations trying really hard not to get involved in any European adventures. Probably they would each be the others number one trading partner.

I know, too much reality spoils the game.
 
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Could you get the CSA to ally with Germany (or any other European power rivalling Britain and France)? That would lead pretty much automatically to UK & France palling up with the US

Germany isn't even one state when the CSA break off.
 
Germany isn't even one state when the CSA break off.

I'm not sure how that's relevant, it doesn't need to be.

The 'surviving CSA and USA remain belligerent' cliché is a cliché because it's fairly likely, so I don't think the CSA will be isolationist. At the very least, in the immediate few decades after the War they'll be concerned by the possibility of a new war; they'll want allies, and look for them where they can find them. If the traditional powers value their relations with the USA higher than the CSA then the latter will have to go looking for new powers.

In most late 19th century scenarios, Germany will be a contender, but it doesn't necessarily need to be them; whether it's rejuvenated Habsburgs or Italowankia, if Britain and France are worried about NewPower and allied with each other then a CSA-NewPower alliance will push the USA and *Entente together.
 

Onyx

Banned
Im done with the 2nd part of my TL

I left the whole US-UK-French Alliance blank

I'm getting ready to post this on the forums, so can anyone just give me a plausible scenario in how this can happen?
Just make it quick and easy
 
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