Getting the De Medici to betray the Catholic Church…

FDW

Banned
So yeah, is it possible for the De Medici to betray the Catholic Church in some fashion? How and When could this be done? And what would be the consequences of such an action? (Any period when the De Medici are in power is fine, though I tend to be more favorable of dates around 1600-1650)
 
Why would they want to and what does that mean (converting to Protestantism? Something more drastic?)?

I mean, there's not much point trying to come up with a scenario that flounders on "But they wouldn't be interested in it."
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Hrmm...

The Medicis had four popes in the family; Leo X, Clement VII, Pius IV, and Leo XI.

Some sort of unfortunate incident at the Conclave (a Medici doesn't win? Rigged ballots?) or something could cause the split.

Perhaps the Medicis even back an antipope of their own in Tuscany?
 
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(Any period when the De Medici are in power is fine, though I tend to be more favorable of dates around 1600-1650)

By which time the Grand Duchy was is a state of economic ruin, due in part to fighting Urban VIII. Interesting story, just read a little of it. Anyways, surrounded by Catholic powers as they were, bankrupt and with the Thirty years' War concluding or just concluded (depends on the year), it seems to me there would have been beaucoup forces available to the Catholic powers which the Medici would have been in no condition to resist. So it would be an even shorter story than OTL.
 

FDW

Banned
Why would they want to and what does that mean (converting to Protestantism? Something more drastic?)?

I mean, there's not much point trying to come up with a scenario that flounders on "But they wouldn't be interested in it."

I'm trying to think of a scenario where De Medici end up seeing the church as something of enemy, rather than an ally.

Hrmm...

The Medicis had four popes in the family; Leo X, Clement VII, Pius IV, and Leo XI.

Some sort of unfortunate incident at the Conclave (a Medici doesn't win? Rigged ballots?) or something could cause the split.

Perhaps the Medicis even back an antipope of their own in Tuscany?

So a way forward might be getting screwed out of the Papacy.

By which time the Grand Duchy was is a state of economic ruin, due in part to fighting Urban VIII. Interesting story, just read a little of it. Anyways, surrounded by Catholic powers as they were, bankrupt and with the Thirty years' War concluding or just concluded (depends on the year), it seems to me there would have been beaucoup forces available to the Catholic powers which the Medici would have been in no condition to resist. So it would be an even shorter story than OTL.

This means that post-1600 would likely be out.
 
I'm trying to think of a scenario where De Medici end up seeing the church as something of enemy, rather than an ally.

In 1478 the Pope backed a conspiracy that wounded Lorenzo and killed Giuliano Medici. The Archbishop of Pisa was executed for his part in the plot and the Pope excommunicated Lorenzo and put Florence under interdict.

Lorenzo's son became Pope in 1513. Three more Medici Popes would follow.
 
Why would the Medici turn on a pillar of society that they had been manipulating for influence for ages? Surely the logical response to being screwed out of a Papal election is just to do what they actually did...to intrigue to win it back. I mean, what do they stand to gain from abandoning the faith that is equal to waiting to win back the Papal throne? If they went Protestant they'd become insignificant and become the object of hate of all Italians, including their own subjects. If they tried to establish an anti-Pope they would be the only ones to recognise them and they would essentially be erecting a big neon sign asking to be attacked and executed by their neighbours in the Pope's name. It would just be too obvious a petulant move to fool anybody into supporting them, and they had so many enemies that it would be just the opportunity that their detractors had been waiting for to rid Italy of its biggest menace.
 

FDW

Banned
Why would the Medici turn on a pillar of society that they had been manipulating for influence for ages? Surely the logical response to being screwed out of a Papal election is just to do what they actually did...to intrigue to win it back. I mean, what do they stand to gain from abandoning the faith that is equal to waiting to win back the Papal throne? If they went Protestant they'd become insignificant and become the object of hate of all Italians, including their own subjects. If they tried to establish an anti-Pope they would be the only ones to recognise them and they would essentially be erecting a big neon sign asking to be attacked and executed by their neighbours in the Pope's name. It would just be too obvious a petulant move to fool anybody into supporting them, and they had so many enemies that it would be just the opportunity that their detractors had been waiting for to rid Italy of its biggest menace.

Okay then, but keep in mind, my goal is simply for the De Medici to betray the catholic church, not to do so and thrive afterwards. So I don't mind if this ends with the De Medici's heads on sticks.
 
Okay then, but keep in mind, my goal is simply for the De Medici to betray the catholic church, not to do so and thrive afterwards. So I don't mind if this ends with the De Medici's heads on sticks.

I'd say most likely you'd need it to occur early - before they ever get their hands on the Papal tiara and possibly even before they were close. A string of worse luck leading them to only ever have a marginal chance of success yet still taking it very badly when they lose. Wait a few years, still fail to get anywhere. Then do something drastic. Any later and they will understand just how much waiting for a legitimate election is worth to them, and consequently be willing to do so.

A bit vague, but I'm not an expert on Italy.
 

FDW

Banned
I'd say most likely you'd need it to occur early - before they ever get their hands on the Papal tiara and possibly even before they were close. A string of worse luck leading them to only ever have a marginal chance of success yet still taking it very badly when they lose. Wait a few years, still fail to get anywhere. Then do something drastic. Any later and they will understand just how much waiting for a legitimate election is worth to them, and consequently be willing to do so.

A bit vague, but I'm not an expert on Italy.

So maybe having Lorenzo killed would be a good way forward?
 
During the Pazzi Conspiracy, in the late 15th century. Pope Sixtus IV supported Francesco de Pazzi to murder Lorenzo di Medici and take control of Florence.

Another possibility could be Cosimo de Medici becoming Orthodox inn a different Council of Florence.
 
So maybe having Lorenzo killed would be a good way forward?

Possibly. I really couldn't speculate an actual scenario as I don't remember the period well enough atm. It's a decent long while since I read anything about it. All I can say is that you would presume at the least that no Medici would act against the Pope unless it wasn't a guaranteed act of suicide - i.e. I can't see them just lashing out wildly in response even to an assassination, if the result is an obvious Papal curbstomp on them. Maybe you could mess about with the Italian Wars? I know the time periods don't quite match up so you would probably need to start with a tiny rain-drop POD (a simple birth or death change, or two characters never meeting, or something relatively insignificant) and have the ripples slowly spread out, ever-so-gently nerfing the Medici's power so that they never really get it into their heads that they can get a vice-like grip on Rome. Once they've got the Papacy in sight, there's no real reason for them to betray Rome, as the rewards of having a Medici Pope are just too lucrative to turn their backs on.

Just my thoughts, anyway.
 

FDW

Banned
Possibly. I really couldn't speculate an actual scenario as I don't remember the period well enough atm. It's a decent long while since I read anything about it. All I can say is that you would presume at the least that no Medici would act against the Pope unless it wasn't a guaranteed act of suicide - i.e. I can't see them just lashing out wildly in response even to an assassination, if the result is an obvious Papal curbstomp on them. Maybe you could mess about with the Italian Wars? I know the time periods don't quite match up so you would probably need to start with a tiny rain-drop POD (a simple birth or death change, or two characters never meeting, or something relatively insignificant) and have the ripples slowly spread out, ever-so-gently nerfing the Medici's power so that they never really get it into their heads that they can get a vice-like grip on Rome. Once they've got the Papacy in sight, there's no real reason for them to betray Rome, as the rewards of having a Medici Pope are just too lucrative to turn their backs on.

Just my thoughts, anyway.

I think if I can tie Lorenzo getting killed to a modified Italian wars leading building up to a modified protestant reformation (the ground for it had been laid for quite some time before Luther mad) then we could possibly have the De Medici survive.
 
Remember, we're talking about PEOPLE here. If people are so rational, how the US end up in Vietnam defending a horrid monarchy? We're especially talking about the whole stretch of de Medici here, filled to the gills with irrational examples.

So, I say, why not, if one got totally annoyed?
 
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