The casualties seem quite excessive for the Japanese, do they not? The US and Japanese strength are relatively equal, plus, the Japanese going full Maginot/Verdun mode against an attacking force... if anything the US wounded and killed should be changed between each other.
Getting Ahead of Ourselves: A B-29 TL
- Thread starter Parmenion
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Remember the Japanese are not walking out of there. They have no resupply, no air or naval support. They're fighting to the last man, but the Marines are actually getting support.
Sorry just realized my wikipedia mistake, but I don't have the heart to correct it. Obviously that's supposed to say American, not protestant.
I like to think people are here to have a rousing read of a well written story, not quibble over silly little details.
Kuriyabashi was also in a "no hope of resupply" situation on Iwo IOTL, and with less men and resources than were available ITTL. And yet for some reason you've made him come off worse than he did on Iwo, inflicting proportionally less casualties than he did upon the Americans IOTL. What gives?
Disappointing. I would have liked to think that a commander as thoughtful as Kuriyabashi, who ensured that all civilians were evacuated from Iwo IOTL, would not have tolerated atrocities against noncombatants occurring under his command.
It's still a higher proportion when you consider the fact that there are fewer marines here than on Iwo, and they are essentially following a philisophy of "Use the BB's to blow shit up, call in an air strike, repeat as needed for an hour, Then advance." by now the marines are learning, and are relying on more close tank support and flame tanks where possible, rather then trying to rush to secure the island. Remember the marines aren't stupid either and they're learning, a lot of the guys on Guam were on Saipan, and know what to expect.
Yeah, but those were Japanese citizens. I get that the guy is pretty cool, but this is still WW2 Japan.
It isn't though. IOTL he lost twenty thousand men for seven thousand Marines, here you have him losing forty thousand for seven thousand five hundred. Keeping the proportions intact or higher should have him inflicting closer to twelve thousand American dead for his forty thousand losses.
Well that should make matters worse for the Americans then. If the Japanese, the entrenched Japanese soldiers who could find shelter in the bunkers and tunnels immune to air or naval bombardment would fight to the last man then they would make the Americans pay in blood for every meter they take. And having no chance of resupply during the battle seems, well, pointless? You would image they stocked enough supplies to last weeks if not months. (the French in Algiers in 1940 for example could fight with no resupply from mainland France for 3 months or so)
Another example would be the battle of Amiens in 1918 where the Entente had triple the amount of troops, equipment and supplies compared to the hungry Germans, yet they still suffer slightly more than half the German casualties.
The BBs could not offer any support after the troops are close to the frontlines, neither any aircrafts for fear of hitting their own men. And the Japanese would surely expect such a tactic and prepare accordingly by using entrached and obscured positions.
And I am pretty sure relying on close tank support and flame tanks were already the norm by 1942, as the 75 Sherman was considered an infantry support vehicle. Those would be useless against well defended positions that have even the average Type 3 75 mm canon.
Don't forget that in this case the Japanese are enjoying Maginot line type of defense, so, that number should be even higher.
You're right, I mean a greater proportion of the marines were killed here as opposed to Iwo. You make good points though I may edit the casualties later.
Talk:Battle_of_Guam#Protestant
Look I know this is a bit of a joke regarding how the rum riots worked after the major clearance of Japanese troops but no major histories support drunken anti-Catholicism during an alcohol fueled PTSD trauma mutiny being the most significant thing that happened on Guam. I’m going to get the info box locked if new accounts don’t stop editing that in.
***
maybe that helps
Sam R.
Look I know this is a bit of a joke regarding how the rum riots worked after the major clearance of Japanese troops but no major histories support drunken anti-Catholicism during an alcohol fueled PTSD trauma mutiny being the most significant thing that happened on Guam. I’m going to get the info box locked if new accounts don’t stop editing that in.
***
maybe that helps
Sam R.
Part14- One Last Charge
Yokosuka Naval Base, February 5th 1944
Navy minister Shimada sat in the ward room of the newly completed Taiho, along with Combined fleet Commander Koga, Admiral Ozawa, and their respective chiefs of staff. The ship had mangeged to be completed and commissioned a month earlier than anticipated. Partly due to the dock workers being run non-stop since Yawata was bombed, and partly due to 2 cruisers and a dozen destroyers having their construction suspended or postponed to free up manpower and materials.
Shimada said "More good news, the Hosho has been declared fit for combat yet agian, despite the scaled down refit. How many aircraft can you squeez out of her, Ozawa?" "That depends, a mixed air complement of now more than 12, But if we only use zeros it's closer to 22." Koga spoke up "Which would allow the remaining light carriers to carry more strike aircraft." Ozawa continued "The Combined fleet will be ready for combat service by eight weeks from today, mosty for Taiho to finish it's sea trials. In that time, Hosho can still have some of it's refitting done." Shimada said "by which time you should expect to have mostly susei's and tenzan's as your attack wing. While zero production facilities being transferred to shiden production, I'll ensure enough of the updated varient's are produced to keep you supplied."
Koga nodded "Now the most important matter, where amd how do we meet the enemy? I believe it's too late to save General Kuribayashi. By now the enemy has at least four of their new fleet carriers operating, plus escorts, in addition to whatever they have based on Saipan." Ozawa interjected "By now though, isn't it likely they've suffered heavy losses from attrition?" "Perhaps, but the Americans have proven capable of rapid resupply, I doubt they would be at less than 80 percent capacity by the time we got there, I agree the Marianas should be presumed lost. So logically we should prepare to meet them where they strike next." "Iwo Jima" Shimada replied. "Yes. They'll need to take it to keep the Marianas clear of attackers. They may not know about the reinforcements we sent last year, the garrison is at twenty thousand strong now. What's more, the third airfield has been completed, that allows significant land based air support if we prepare now."
" I agree. We may also be able to get heavy bomber support from mainland japan at that range, it's our best option. It's settled then, once the Americans prepare two attack Iwo jima, we'll sortie, and hope to catch them off guard. We'll begin preparation immediately." At that the men saluted, and returned to their posts. They all hoped Kuribayashi would hold out.
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Part 15-Army Matters
Imperial General Headquarters, February 5th 1944
While Shimada was busy planning the next move of the Combined fleet, Hideki Tojo was taking advantage of having the General Headquarters to himself. He and the Chief of General Staff General Sugiyama had arranged a meeting to discuss the next moves of the army. Several liaisons to Field Marshal Hata who was in Nanking, as well as for General Kawabe in Rangoon. The Emperor was in attendance as well of course, but aside from some pleasantries said nothing.
Sugiyama opened "The main purpose for all of you're attending this briefing is to discuss the scaling-down of various operations that have been undergoing planning for the past year. Firstly, operation U-Go has been cancelled until further notice." Kawabe's liaison said curtly "General Kawabe will of course be expecting some explanation for that". "Mainly the army believes that such an offensive in a peripheral theater is not advisable at this time. Any incursion into India is unlikely to yield any significant advantage in short order, even if there is an Indian rebellion. That being the case, his priority should be in fortifying a position that keeps the Burma Road from falling into enemy hands. His equipment and units assigned shall remain unchanged. At that the liaison nodded.
Sugiyama continued "Next is the status of operation Ichi-Go. While the operation is to continue, all offensives north of Hankow not. The operations goal is now simply to link Canton and Ninning to Wuhan. Once these routes are secure, civilian labor will be transferred for the construction and maintenance of rail lines to these cities. This will be accompanied by similar efforts in Indochina, With the ultimate goal of creating a continuous rail link from Saigon to Shanghai."
Tojo now spoke "The main reason for this is to ensure a continuous supply of fuel to Japan. If the navy fails yet again, it's likely that the American submarines will fan out into the west pacific and sink every oil tanker that tries to get through. This rail link will ensure an alternative supply, although a limited one." The Emperor frowned at the jab against the navy, but said nothing.
Tojo continued "Additionally, Ki-84 production is beginning to reach capacity, we estimate 2,500 completed this year. We're also reorganizing anti-aircraft gun production to prioritize the new type 3 heavy gun, it's likely the only weapon we have that can destroy the American bombers. Our priority is the protection of the people of Japan" At that first Air Army commander Prince Yi Un spoke up "Which brings the issue of pilot training. Capable pilots for existing planes have proven hard enough to aquire, where should we expect to get more trained pilots?"
Tojo assured him "That was difficult, you're correct the Army Air Service has seen better days. About four dozen pilots have been recalled from various stations in China and The Phillipines primarily, to act as the backbone of the new air wings". After another hour of discussion on specifics, The Emperor gave a toast to Kuribayashi and the defenders of Guam, and the men filed out. None were confident in the success of the navy.
With MacArthur now not leading the US Army in the Pacific, will this mean that the US will go to Formosa instead of Philippines?
Edited: Also, could the japanese think of recreating the Onna-bugeisha (women warriors from Japanese antiquity), including in pilots, taking the inspiration on the soviet ones?
Edited: Also, could the japanese think of recreating the Onna-bugeisha (women warriors from Japanese antiquity), including in pilots, taking the inspiration on the soviet ones?
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It's certainly a possibility, although another option is just direct to Okinawa after Iwo is secure.
Possibly, although even then they won't be ready until some time in '45.
Into the Fire, Part 2
After a cautious advance to the Yona line, the marines began probing it on February 7th. The Japanese resist fiercely, Inflicting heavy casaulties before more armored support arrived. Oldendorf's battleships laid down heavy supporting fire in the Japanese rear, silencing many artillery positions, but were unable to provide direct support due to the risk of friendly fire. This was best exemplified on the 12th, when a shell from the USS Idaho fell short, landing near an American forward aid post and killing 50 wounded marines and medics. What's more, several battleships had to leave the area, not for resupply but to repair their guns, whose barrels had been worn down by constant firing.
The Advance was slow and hampered by the Japanese left flank, which despite heavy air and naval bombardment continued to rain heavy artillery on the American positions. The northernmost section of these mountains was dominated by a steep ridge that overlooked Aga. The Japanese heavily fortified the position with mortars and machine guns, forcing the marines to launch a blooding three day flankng maneuver to climb the ridge's eastern side. The marines were overjoyed when the position went quiet the morning of the 14th, only to find very few Japanese dead. The defenders had not been killed, but had simply abandoned their positions when they ran out of ammunition.
This was to be the order of the day on Guam. The Japanese were being killed, but most would simply pull back to a new position and keep fighting, much to the dismay of the marines. The army did at least begin providing support in the form of the 77th infantry division, which arrived on the 20th. Additional air support was also provided from army bombers stationed on southern Saipan, adding to the hail of fire that fell on the island. With Kyoto Castle still pounding several key roads with its heavy mortars, Eichelberger put the priority on knocking them out. Everything was thrown at the mountain, 16 inch shells, 2,000 pound bombs, even incendiaries did little besides defoliate the entire mountainside.
By early March, with the marines finally approching, Kuribayashi left his command post at Kyoto castle, telling the remainder of the garrison there to fire what ammunition they had left before doing the same. On March 3rd, marines finally reached the base of the fortress, where a 48 hour struggle to breach it began. After several setbacks the Marines finally entered, only to find a handful of dead soldiers, and a small mountain of shell casings. The Japanese had given them the slip yet again.
The Advance was slow and hampered by the Japanese left flank, which despite heavy air and naval bombardment continued to rain heavy artillery on the American positions. The northernmost section of these mountains was dominated by a steep ridge that overlooked Aga. The Japanese heavily fortified the position with mortars and machine guns, forcing the marines to launch a blooding three day flankng maneuver to climb the ridge's eastern side. The marines were overjoyed when the position went quiet the morning of the 14th, only to find very few Japanese dead. The defenders had not been killed, but had simply abandoned their positions when they ran out of ammunition.
This was to be the order of the day on Guam. The Japanese were being killed, but most would simply pull back to a new position and keep fighting, much to the dismay of the marines. The army did at least begin providing support in the form of the 77th infantry division, which arrived on the 20th. Additional air support was also provided from army bombers stationed on southern Saipan, adding to the hail of fire that fell on the island. With Kyoto Castle still pounding several key roads with its heavy mortars, Eichelberger put the priority on knocking them out. Everything was thrown at the mountain, 16 inch shells, 2,000 pound bombs, even incendiaries did little besides defoliate the entire mountainside.
By early March, with the marines finally approching, Kuribayashi left his command post at Kyoto castle, telling the remainder of the garrison there to fire what ammunition they had left before doing the same. On March 3rd, marines finally reached the base of the fortress, where a 48 hour struggle to breach it began. After several setbacks the Marines finally entered, only to find a handful of dead soldiers, and a small mountain of shell casings. The Japanese had given them the slip yet again.
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