Get the Allies in Berlin before the Soviets

WILDGEESE

WILDGEESE

Inspired by a couple of threads on here at the moment

With a OTL D-Day landing, somehow get the Allies into Berlin before the Soviets.

You can change a certain battle, campaign or even those up top running the show, even Stalin falling off his perch on the khazzi

Bonus points if you can get both parties to meet on the German-Polish border or even half way into Poland.

Regards filers
 
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The Tai-Pan

My first thought, upon the title, was a freakishly successful Sledgehammer but obviously that is not within your POD range.

I mean, our first step is to actually make the Allies care. In OTL, Eisenhower never felt pressured to reach Berlin and Roosevelt never bothered to do so. The post-war settlement had been decided by treaty not by boots on the ground. So maybe we need to make things more contentious and less certain between the USSR and the USA?
 
marathag

marathag

Banned
83rd Infantry Division, Thunderbolt, doesn't get the stop order and keeps heading toward Berlin, with one of the few totally mechanized forces ever to have seen combat, where literally nobody walked, as they took any Germany vehicle, civilian or army, from Firetrucks and Cement Mixers to a King Tiger, slapped green paint and a big white star, and rolled toward Berlin until ordered to take not one step past the Elbe.
So from March 29, advanced 280 miles in 13 days, 40 miles from Berlin.
 

The Oncoming Storm

I’ve often thought the best way to do this is to have the Wehrmacht mount a better defence in the east after Stalingrad and not suffer the catastrophes of Kursk and Bagration, the latter quite literally tore the guts out of the Ostfront. A slower advance by the Red Army could mean the WAllies have more time to get to Berlin. Maybe also the landings in Southern France are cancelled so there’s more resources to through at the West.
 

mattep74

marathag said:
83rd Infantry Division, Thunderbolt, doesn't get the stop order and keeps heading toward Berlin, with one of the few totally mechanized forces ever to have seen combat, where literally nobody walked, as they took any Germany vehicle, civilian or army, from Firetrucks and Cement Mixers to a King Tiger, slapped green paint and a big white star, and rolled toward Berlin until ordered to take not one step past the Elbe.
So from March 29, advanced 280 miles in 13 days, 40 miles from Berlin.
Click to expand...
Soviet Airforce gets orders to stage an accident in that case. And the Germans in front of them just vanish?
 

The Tai-Pan

The Oncoming Storm said:
I’ve often thought the best way to do this is to have the Wehrmacht mount a better defence in the east after Stalingrad and not suffer the catastrophes of Kursk and Bagration, the latter quite literally tore the guts out of the Ostfront. A slower advance by the Red Army could mean the WAllies have more time to get to Berlin. Maybe also the landings in Southern France are cancelled so there’s more resources to through at the West.
Click to expand...

If we don't change the circumstances of the war settlement, might this just mean the Allies push less hard? Why bother taking land you will turn over to the Soviets?
 

Bougnas

The Wallies close the Falaise pocket earlier (plausible) or encircle German forces during the Seine crossings, destroying them in the process and therefore neutralizing tens of thousands of battle hardened troops and officers and taking out their vehicles.
Progress in August and September is even faster and an improved version of Market Garden brings the Wallies to the Zuidersee and eliminates the German army defending the Scheldt, securing the approaches to Antwerp as a bonus. The Wallies have liberated the Netherlands and are on the Rhine by the end of October. You could also improve the logistical situation and the performance of US and French forces further South-East but overall you have already crippled German forces in the West and accelerated Wallied progress by weeks if not months. The Germans might not even be in the position to launch the Battle of the Bulge.
 

LegionoftheUnitedStates

Bougnas said:
The Wallies close the Falaise pocket earlier (plausible) or encircle German forces during the Seine crossings, destroying them in the process and therefore neutralizing tens of thousands of battle hardened troops and officers and taking out their vehicles.
Progress in August and September is even faster and an improved version of Market Garden brings the Wallies to the Zuidersee and eliminates the German army defending the Scheldt, securing the approaches to Antwerp as a bonus. The Wallies have liberated the Netherlands and are on the Rhine by the end of October. You could also improve the logistical situation and the performance of US and French forces further South-East but overall you have already crippled German forces in the West and accelerated Wallied progress by weeks if not months. The Germans might not even be in the position to launch the Battle of the Bulge.
Click to expand...

This would work, the Western Allies essentially get Japan 1941 luck in the summer and fall of 1944.

1. Capture Caen earlier but British still tie up the bulk of the German army.

2. Breakout of Normandy earlier and close Falaise Pocket with bulk of German troops.

3. Faster breakout and less resistance means capture of channel ports mostly intact.

4. Scheldt estuary captured quickly

5. Antwerp captured intact

6. Allies free the Netherlands and take the Rhineland and get a Bridgehead across the Rhine before winter sets in.

If you combine this with worse luck for the Soviets, then the Western Allies would be motivated to take Berlin to try to end the War.
 

Jericho7son

After original d-day

No diversion of 3 of Patton's divisions into Brittany where they did nothing the rest of the year except invest ports which where thoroughly wrecked

Much more aggressive maneuver by Montgomery at Falaise to bag the cream of the German army in the west

Not stopping the bombardment of the Seine bridges as the Germans where retreating to force them to surrender instead of ultimately withdrawing to the west wall

Not bombing French roads and rail lines that where along likely routes of allied advance

No market garden, broad front advance only to stop the Germans from concentrating reserves and forcing them to retire all along the line created the greatest confusion

Immediate end to operations in Italy after capture of Rome with earliest possible Dragoon, the war was going to be won in france where there was room to maneuver and no mountains between the allies and Berlin, also with the withdrawl of reserves to fight the overlord troops, the southern french ports where less defended and captured in better condition than the ones in the north and could nourish a supply chain either, nor had southern france been subjected to as much road/rail net destruction over the previous 12 months as northern france
 
Alamo

Alamo

The Tai-Pan said:
If we don't change the circumstances of the war settlement, might this just mean the Allies push less hard? Why bother taking land you will turn over to the Soviets?
Click to expand...

Given the ongoing events in eastern Europe, there was no good indication that the Soviets would actually abide by the territorial agreements made at Yalta.
 

iddt3

Donor
I was just thinking about this in the context of getting a Wallace Presidency that isn't a disaster - I think you need at least a West Poland, a worse Soviet performance, and Soviet leadership that isn't interested in escalating the cold war.

Maybe Stalin dies at the battle of Moscow, Soviet collective leadership muddles through and is more dependent on the Allies. Allies push farther than OTL simply because the Soviets aren't in a position to go farther.
 

Bougnas

I would point out however that the effects of the changes made to get the Allies in Berlin before the Soviets might be more important, even postwar, than having the Allies in Berlin before the Soviets itself. A larger West-Germany, while possible, would not really be much stronger than the OTL one that had most of the economically important ground near the Rhine.

However, a Wallies wank after D-Day can liberate French, Belgian and Dutch ground much quicker and with less destruction and losses. In particular, the Netherlands suffered heavily from Winter 1944-1945 when the Germans were still there. I don't have the numbers but I assume that if most of Eastern France and the Netherlands was liberated by October 1944 with more harbors being liberated early on, Western Europe would be in a better situation and recover somewhat more quickly in the immediate postwar period, and be stronger as a result (which is relevant as Germany wasn't allowed to have an army until 1956). The UK and US could also start drawing down in Europe earlier, accelerating their advance in Asia with equipment being sent from Europe.
 

Cryhavoc101

In August after the breakout, Ike firms up the army groups Lines of responsibility as they close up with the German boarder - giving responsibility of the capture of Brussels and Antwerp (including the surrounding area - Wilhelmina canal etc) to 2nd British Army and reducing the burden on the 1st Canadian which was tasked with clearing teh coastal ports and ultimately clearing both banks of Scheldt Estuary - freeing up Antwerp for business.

During the Breakout Brest is taken rapidly by 4th US Armored before the Germans can build up forces for a siege (IIRC OTL they were, with hindsight 'unnecessarily halted' and this window of opportunity closed) - and this port is opened for Business by Sept

Market Garden (launched a week earlier) works allowing the Allies to bypass the Western defenses and they occupy the Ruhr in October 1944 - the Scheldt Estuary is opened the same month after a combined Amphibious attack and land side assault on Walcheren Island in late Sept by the 2nd Canadian and Commando units.

Due to the extra frontage and increased losses (lost and cut off in the Netherlands etc) along with German forces West of the Ruhr fearing encirclement falling back east the US Army Groups experience much reduced resistance and one by one all bounce the Rhine and penetrate the West Wall before Christmas and the severe winter weather halts all progress.

What German reserves were then available are squandered in failed counter attacks at the Ruhr and those US Army Groups Bridge heads.

The Western Allies with a few local exceptions - pause major operations to allow their logistics to recover during the period of severe weather both sides of Xmas but come February they are ready to go.

At the Yalta Conference it is agreed that Germany will be carved up into areas of occupation and Berlin ends up in the British Quadrant (Berlin to be partitioned of course)

Ike seeing an opportunity for glory launches operation 'Thunder Hammer' and Launches 21st Army Group under Monty (Minus 1st Canadian but reinforced by most of Hodges 1st Army as well as most of the Airborne Corps 4 now refitted after their successes in Sept) across the North German Plain with the intention to Capture Berlin and end the war ASAP

Simultaneous thrusts are made by each of the remaining army group each with their own objective (but primarily to confuse the German Commanders as to the main threat) Needless to Say 12th Army Group under Bradley does its upmost to beat the 21st AG to Berlin with 6th AG under Devers to the South determined to capture Munich and the Brenner pass (and 'join hands' with the Allies in Italy after the Italian Front collapses).

The 1st Canadian Army plans to move into North West Germany with the Ultimate goal of taking Hamburg.

In the 2nd week of March, 83rd Infantry Division, officially called the Thunderbolt Division but locally named 'The Circus' due to its eclectic collection of vehicles under 21st Army group are the first to reach Berlin and 'as per Monty's plan' by pass it and along with other units over several days encircle the Capital.

On the 21st March combined 21st Army Group began its 3 week methodical assault on the City with all of the Assaulting divisions supported by the Hobart Funny Regiments (AVRE, Crocs and other specialized tanks) of the 79th Armored Division and making extremely heavy use of Artillery and armor as well as air power to grind their way through the fanatical defenders using steel, HE and fire where possible to save the Blood and flesh of the Assaulting infantry.

Hitler was likely killed when his bunker was hit by 3 Grand Slam earthquake bombs (out of 14) dropped on those buildings by No 100 and 617 Squadrons RAF on the morning of the 7th March - the surrounding Old and New chancellery buildings were also leveled in the attack.

Rumors abound to this day that Hitler escaped the cordon and lived out his days in South America - but a number of witnesses placed him in the Bunker on that morning

Remaining resistance rapidly collapsed with the last pockets eliminated on the 13th March.

Germany officially surrendered on the 15th March.

(The ceremony was repeated on the 17th March after the Soviets complained that they had not been represented on the 15th)
 
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