Get an Ottoman Italy

[Philip]

Here's another possibility. Apparently in those areas of Greece that were under Venetian control, the Greek Catholic population survived. What would it take to get the Campanians/Apulians/Maltese/etc. to become Eastern Rite (Greek) Catholic, instead of Orthodox, in this scenario, or have part of the population Eastern Rite Catholic?

I don't see Rome giving them the autonomy needed for this. I think they would be brought under direct Roman control.

 

[Dan1988]

Well if Greeks were shipped over to Turkey, there could be the possibility of this to occur. Of course this would probably be alongside the Latin Rite Catholics (aka Roman Catholics) that were there already, of which there could be the possibility of some of them moving to the Eastern Rite church.

 

[Locke]

Im not an expert on this subject, but couldn't a POD be the Battle of Lepanto, or even later yet the Austria campaigns in the 19 century?

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I don't see Rome giving them the autonomy needed for this. I think they would be brought under direct Roman control.

They will have no choice in the matter - the scenario is if there is an Ottoman conquest. There is no chance the Ottomans will leave S Italy and Sicily under Papal authority - these areas would be transferred to the Patriarchate of Constantinople. If it's decided to set up a Catholic Millet, then they would be transferred to the Roman Patriarchate of Constantinople, although I think in the 15th c the Orthodox will get it.

 

[Philip]

If it's decided to set up a Catholic Millet, then they would be transferred to the Roman Patriarchate of Constantinople, although I think in the 15th c the Orthodox will get it.

Are we talking about the Latin Patriarch of Constantinople? In the 15th Century, that was a ceremonial title normally held by someone in Rome.

 

[Dan1988]

Well, here's an idea. IOTL, the Greek Byzantine Catholic Church in 1880 a sui juiris church was established for those Catholics following the Byzantine Rite living in Greece and Turkey. Now if there were Greek Catholics living in southern Italy, could this sui juiris church be established sooner than 1880, especially for the Italians already living there?

Here's the official website of this particular Church.
http://www.elcathex.com/eke/

 

[Philip]

Well, here's an idea. IOTL, the Greek Byzantine Catholic Church in 1880 a sui juiris church was established for those Catholics following the Byzantine Rite living in Greece and Turkey. Now if there were Greek Catholics living in southern Italy, could this sui juiris church be established sooner than 1880, especially for the Italians already living there?

Were these already Latin Rite Catholics?

 

[Dan1988]

No. There were Latin Rite Catholics, yes, but there were also Byzantine Rite Catholics. The Latin Rite Catholics mainly were concentrated in areas controlled by Venice.

 

[Philip]

No. There were Latin Rite Catholics, yes, but there were also Byzantine Rite Catholics. The Latin Rite Catholics mainly were concentrated in areas controlled by Venice.

I meant the Greek Catholics in Italy. Were they already Latin Rite?

 

[Dan1988]

Depends. In OTL much of the Italian peninsula was Roman Catholic, aka Latin Rite Catholic. If an Ottoman Italy happens in TTL, then Greek Catholics could be shipped to Italy. Throw in some "converting" Roman Catholics to an Eastern Rite Church and voila!

 

[Philip]

Depends. In OTL much of the Italian peninsula was Roman Catholic, aka Latin Rite Catholic. If an Ottoman Italy happens in TTL, then Greek Catholics could be shipped to Italy. Throw in some "converting" Roman Catholics to an Eastern Rite Church and voila!

There would have to be tremendous political pressure for the Greeks to convert. The Council of Florence was in the 15th Century. St Mark of Ephesus repudiated that Council and is recognized as one of the greatest Orthodox saints because of it. If southern Italy is under Ottoman control, it would be nearly impossible for Rome to place that pressure.

 

[Dan1988]

Like I said: there were already Greek Catholics in Greece itself. So no need to do that. Do all the converting on the Italians under Ottoman control.

 

[Philip]

Like I said: there were already Greek Catholics in Greece itself. So no need to do that. Do all the converting on the Italians under Ottoman control.

I'm really not sure what you are saying. You want to have Italians convert to the Byzantine Rite?

 

[Dan1988]

Why not?

 

[Philip]

Why not?

Why would they convert to Byzantine Rite rather than Orthodoxy?

 

[Dan1988]

Pretty much because at least with the Byzantine Rite, it is still somewhat similar to Catholic theology. Also, it could be used as a kind of discernment tool. If the average Italian likes what he sees, he might as well could convert to the Orthodox Church, but ONLY if s/he wants to. Plus, remember that a majority of Italians are Catholic, and this would just fit right in.

 

[Philip]

Pretty much because at least with the Byzantine Rite, it is still somewhat similar to Catholic theology.

Well, sort of. But even so, why would they convert to Byzantine Rite rather than remain Latin Rite? I don't see what they gain by it?

Plus, remember that a majority of Italians are Catholic, and this would just fit right in.

I'm not sure it would fit. I don't see 15th Century Italian Latin Catholics taking to kindly to those who become Byzantine Catholic in Italy.

 

[Dan1988]

Well, sort of. But even so, why would they convert to Byzantine Rite rather than remain Latin Rite? I don't see what they gain by it?

Well maybe because the Latin Rite could be seen as treasonous?

I'm not sure it would fit. I don't see 15th Century Italian Latin Catholics taking to kindly to those who become Byzantine Catholic in Italy.

Even if the Byzantine Catholics are still in communion with Rome?

 

[Nicole]

Religiously, my guess is that if the current Pope resists, he gets killed and the College of Cardinals rather quickly elects someone who will make a deal with the Ottomans...

Though my preferred method of an Ottoman Italy would involve Catholic Ottomans reconquering the southern provinces of the Pagan Norse Empire, but that's just me...

 

[Philip]

Well maybe because the Latin Rite could be seen as treasonous?

Treasonous to whom, and why?

Even if the Byzantine Catholics are still in communion with Rome?

It could very well be seen as moving away from Rome.