Germany z plan

NoMommsen

Donor
The Z-plan was a completly unrealistic dreamland especially its timeframe. Beside the ship don't forget to add the new Mega-War-Harbour to be build at Ruegen as well as several other infrastructures.
I would doubt or seriously question, if even the USA would have been capable from 1938 to 1943/44 to build this fleet.
 
Germany builds less tanks. There is only so much armour plating that a country can produce. Put it on BBs as the British did and you cut into the number of land ships you can build. Of course more armour plating foundries can be built, but that means either not building something else, raiding your population's saving to pay for it or being unself-sufficient and borrowing on the international money markets. OK, so a Nazi government would go for option two, which would hit it financially when war does start mid 40s.
 
It was estimated that the z-plan ships would require 6 million tons of fuel oil and 2 million tons of diesel fuel per year in war time.
If you compare that with the availability of oil in Germany (Peak in 1943 with 10.5 million tons. Domestic production, synthetic oil plants, imports.) you see the problem.
And even in 1943 fuel had to be carefully husbanded.

So in scenario 1 you have a shiny fleet without fuel.
Kind of like the Italian navy in WW2 only worse.
And as Michael B said, a lot less steel to build tanks, guns....
Or optics, electrical equipment....

Or in scenario 2 you build an additional 12-18 synthetic oil plants (in 1943 12 existing plants produced 5.75 million tons).
Reducing the amount of steel and labor available to build tanks, guns, trucks, airplanes even more than in option 1.
Plus of course reducing the amount of coal available for other uses.

The z plan like some other plans was designed with total disregard to economic realities and available resources.
I mean even the planners of the z plan realized the amount of fuel needed for their shiny new fleet was "enormous".
Their solution was some "hand waving".
Unspecified higher domestic production of oil and an absolutely huge amount of oil in storage tanks for war times.
Where to get the hard foreign currency to buy all that stored oil?
Where to get all that steel?
IIRC there was already a steel "crisis" in Nazi Germany in the late 1930s?
Not to mention the labor and enlarged shipyards needed to build that fleet.
With total disregard to what the army and air force may need.

Just to compare it, in 1938 the whole of Germany (civilian and military) only needed 6.15 million tons of oil per year.
To design a navy in late 1938 / early 1939 that would need 8 million tons per year in war time strikes me as....stupidity squared?
 
Germany builds less tanks. There is only so much armour plating that a country can produce. Put it on BBs as the British did and you cut into the number of land ships you can build. Of course more armour plating foundries can be built, but that means either not building something else, raiding your population's saving to pay for it or being unself-sufficient and borrowing on the international money markets. OK, so a Nazi government would go for option two, which would hit it financially when war does start mid 40s.

And the amount of fuel this fleet would require would exceed Germany's supply. Not to mention where the manpower would come from...
 

Deleted member 1487

The only feasible plan that made sense in 1939 was to start a major build of Uboats, no capital ships. Then come 1940 they'd have a major increase in Uboat strength instead of having to scrap a bunch of work done on battleship hulls.
 
What is the purpose if the Z Plan? 1939 Germany has a tiny coastline outside of the Baltic, less than 1,600 km in the North Sea. If we're expanding the navy, it needs to be in support of amphibious and overland offensives. So, go ahead and build battleships and carriers, but also build LSTs and other assault craft to support invasions on Norway, Britain and Russia, etc.

WWIIEurope02-1024.png
 
And the amount of fuel this fleet would require would exceed Germany's supply. Not to mention where the manpower would come from...
And not to mention that a big building program would stimulate a response by UK and maybe the US as well, making the whole poject utterly self-defeating.
 
The big question is: Can Nazi Germany survive for five years without a Great War to unite its citizens under? The way I see it the universal power grab of the Nazis between 1933 and 1936 was nothing else then a civil war without clear battle fronts. After they won that one in 1936 and got rewarded with the Olympic Games, they tried peace for 3 years, and then they had to start a war with the rest of Europe or else fall into a second civil war between the various wings of the party. Six more years of peace would either result in a full-blown civil war by 1942 or in a Spanish/Italian style of Nazism-light which would probably delay the fleet effort with every budget year as less and less funds would go to military buildup and more and more to public infrastructure works. So by the time plan Z is completed, it will be years later, and with way less and smaller ships then planned. On a flipside, the continuous research into better submarines and cannon aiming techniques will give Germany the power to conquer the world economically with such spinoffs as transistor radios and computer technology.
 
And not to mention that a big building program would stimulate a response by UK and maybe the US as well, making the whole poject utterly self-defeating.
IOTL the UK began said program in 1936 IOTL, which was scheduled to be completed in the middle of the 1940s, which is also when the Germans planned to completed Plan Z. The intention was to match the combined battleships strength of Germany and Japan one-to-one. There would also be 100 cruisers when the Germans were planning a force of 30.

Therefore Plan Z was defeated before Raeder had even devised it.
 
The only feasible plan that made sense in 1939 was to start a major build of Uboats, no capital ships. Then come 1940 they'd have a major increase in Uboat strength instead of having to scrap a bunch of work done on battleship hulls.

Which was basically what they did, except that the planned build ran into the lack of resources as usual.
 

Deleted member 1487

Which was basically what they did, except that the planned build ran into the lack of resources as usual.
No it was the opposite of what they did in 1939:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Z#The_plan
In the short time from the introduction of Plan Z to the beginning of war with the United Kingdom on 3 September only two of the plan's large ships, a pair of H class battleships, were laid down; material for the other four ships had started to be assembled in preparation to begin construction but no work had been done.[22] At the time components of the three battlecruisers were in production, but their keels had not yet been laid down.[23] Two of the M-class cruisers had been laid down, but they were also cancelled in late September.[24] Work on Graf Zeppelin was cancelled definitively in 1943 when Hitler finally abandoned the surface fleet after the Battle of the Barents Sea debacle.[25]

Since the plan was cancelled less than a year after it was approved, the positive effects on German naval construction were minimal. All of the ships authorized by the plan were cancelled after the outbreak of war, with only a few major surface vessels that predated the plan were completed during the conflict. These included Bismarck and Tirpitz, along with the heavy cruisers [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cruiser_Bl%C3%BCcher']Blücher and Prinz Eugen. Without the six H-class battleships or the four aircraft carriers, the Kriegsmarine was once again unable to meet the Royal Navy on equal terms.[26][/URL]
 
What if germany continues to follow the z plan and does not go to war still the middle of 1940s
The British would have completed their scheme for a Two Power standard navy too. Note that the two powers are Germany and Japan.
  1. The submarine fleet would have been built up to a force of 82 boats from 57 in September 1939. All would have been of post war construction instead of 45;
  2. 14 aircraft carriers: 10 Illustrious class, Ark Royal and 3 Courageous class. Replacements for the Courageous class would have been building;
  3. There would have been a much larger FAA. In September 1939 it had a nominal first-line strength of 174 aircraft in 15 squadrons. However, under Expansion Scheme F approved in 1936 it was to be increased to a strength of 504 aircraft in 42 squadrons by 31st March 194. Furthermore by 1945 the quality of British naval aircraft would have been much better than in 1939;
  4. Coastal Command would have had the same number of squadrons, but it would have been re-equipped with a better aircraft than the Anson, which formed about two-thirds of its strength in September 1939. And the extra G.R. squadrons planned for the overseas commands would have been formed.
  5. 20 battleships instead of 15, including 6 Lion class (probably completed 1943-45), 5 King George V class and Lion. Another 4-6 would be under construction;
  6. 100 cruisers instead of (IIRC) 65. The extra new ships would have been a mix of the Colony and Dido classes.
  7. 22 destroyer flotillas. That's about the same number as September 1939, but all the old S, V & W class would have been replaced.
  8. More minor war vessels.
France would have completed 4 Richelieu class battleships and 2 Joffre class aircraft carriers by 1945 and more would be under construction. Though the Italians would have completed the 4 Littorios and had more ships under construction.

The IJN would have been larger too. They might have completed Shinano and No. 111 by the middle 1940s, but I reckon that the American Two Ocean Navy would still have been approved in 1940 and even if it had not Congress would have approved enough new construction for the USN to have maintained a 5:3 superiority over the IJN.

So IMHO it was 1939 or never. AND that is not allowing for France, the USSR and UK catching up with Germany in land power and air power by 1945.
 
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