Germany wins ww2 without nazi or hitler challenge

Mrstrategy

Banned
The challenge is to write a timeline where germany wins ww2 without the nazi party or Hitler with a government that is not anti-Jew or minorities and who can lead germany to become the leader of Europe
 
Of course... If you have a 1930's - 1940's Germany that is neither NAZI right-wing militaristic nor a police state that needs foreign adventures to keep their own population from asking questions... Then why do you need a world war, even one you can win. Couldn't Germany just become an economic and political powerhouse and get all their objectives accomplished by peaceful means, or just with a little bullying?

I think the main challenge in this scenario consists out of devising a way WWII starts without Germany, how it would get drawn in and how it will end up winning.
 

Mrstrategy

Banned
Of course... If you have a 1930's - 1940's Germany that is neither NAZI right-wing militaristic nor a police state that needs foreign adventures to keep their own population from asking questions... Then why do you need a world war, even one you can win. Couldn't Germany just become an economic and political powerhouse and get all their objectives accomplished by peaceful means, or just with a little bullying?

I think the main challenge in this scenario consists out of devising a way WWII starts without Germany, how it would get drawn in and how it will end up winning.

Perhaps Germany can become the leader of Europe by becoming its defender specially against soviet aggression since if the British and French try to appease Stalin like they did with hitler in real life all Balkans and Eastern Europe will want to become allied to Germany specially since germany probably increase their armies regardless part because of economy and part because they want to look strong plus remenber Germany is a militaristic country and the people want a strong Germany both economically as military
 
Germany goes communist, the communists are a dictatorship and aggressive but opposed to racism from a far-left angle, then Germany conquers the rest of Europe and sets everyone up in Soviet-Style puppet states.
 
Okay, it's ASB at best, but the only thing I can come up with is swapping Europe and America, then swapping Germany and the USA.

In an alternate universe Harry Turteldove would be proud of, the Great Depression results in a populist Fascist government ruling the US. Meanwhile a combination of foresight and plain luck results in the Rheinland Republic - the one that replaced the earlier Weimar one- to survive the depression years relatively unscathed, especially compared to France, and England. Eventually it becomes the economic powerhouse of Europe, although militarily it trails behind each of its neighbors. (Extra points if we can somehow move Germany's biggest warmongers to America
like Herman Goering becoming lead manager of Fokker-America and Hitler a background decor painter in Hollywood, possibly with a side job writing government-friendly screen plays and blatantly racist science fiction....)

Anyway, Fascist America discovers military interventions to bolster its popularity with its own - white Anglo- population. First there is the pipe dream of conquering all of Central America up to the Panama channel. -Accomplished by 1938- then the Anschluss with Canada (Turns out Quebequois outdo the 50-state Americans in every aspect of racism, militarism and ideological purity...) In the meantime, Europe relies on their brand of old-world isolationism. With no colonies and no real foreign interests, Germany doesn't even bother to look across the Atlantic. However, it commits itself to building and deploying FP1: Fliegerplatform one, a giant floating airfield parked in the South Atlantic halfway between Dakar and Natal on the Africa to South America air corridor. With the North Atlantic air routes being shut down over England and France's Sitzkrieg with the US, the artificial island quickly becomes the major hub for access to the South-American markets.

After the US, Japan and a Peronist or pre-peronist junta-ruled Argentina declare war on the USSR, Germany helps out the Soviets with a lend-lease program of planes and tanks, but politically stays neutral. However when Argentinan aircraft carriers bomb and sink FP1 to keep the Europeans out of South America while it launches its own war of conquest, Germany, France, Spain, England and Austria declare war on Argentina, the US declares war on Germany and we have in essence the OTL world war inverted. After initially getting clobbered on all fronts, Germany holds off the Argentine invasion of Africa, mauls the US Atlantic fleet in the Battle of Faroer Island, liberates Greenland and finally conquers East US while a resurgent Russia moves down and East from Alaska to Los Angeles. The war won, Germany first establishes the EU, then, with Russian and English help. The EU. Ten years after the war, Canada becomes a neutral state while the US is decided into a Communist-ruled west and a capitalist East for the next 50 years.

yep.. ASB and a blatant rip-off of OTL history as well as some movie tropes (google Hans Albers/ FP1 Antwortet nicht) but it's the best I can come up with this time of night.
 
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The very reason Germany started World War 2 is inherently tied up in Hitler's racial insanity. Pretty much any other German leader then Hitler (including practically all the Nazis) would have likely balked at Munich, much less gone for Poland. Without Hitler, you just don't get WW2 like OTL.

"Aggressive Stalin" won't work since Stalin was an inherently cautious international actor who only prayed and only fought the other major powers when either the odds were extensively in his favor (as against Japan and likely what he intended against Germany) or when they forced him too.

Now a Soviet leader who is able to do everything Stalin did in strengthening the Soviet Union (industrialization, technical-military build-up), avoids doing the stuff that weakened it (Great Purges, the Holodomor), and pursues an aggressive foreign policy that leads to a general war in Europe would do it, although we're liable to see central, eastern, and (in the more worse case scenario) even Western Europe wrecked possibly with the Soviet Union not totally defeated (although it would still technically probably "lose" in the sense it's objectives for the war would be unmet). Germany would in this scenario, at the minimum, basically play the role of the OTL Soviet Union: they'd do most of the killing and dying and be the prime means in bringing about a Soviet defeat, either by stopping and defeating it somewhere in Central Germany (in the better outcomes) or by weakening it enough that the AngloFrench are able to hold it and then drive it back (in the worse outcomes that don't involve Europe getting overrun).
 

Perkeo

Banned
The very reason Germany started World War 2 is inherently tied up in Hitler's racial insanity. Pretty much any other German leader than Hitler (including practically all the Nazis) would have likely balked at Munich, much less gone for Poland. Without Hitler, you just don't get WW2 like OTL.
Seconded! There might be a war with Poland with Franch and British interference over the corridor, but that sort of thing will be remembered as the corridor crisis rather than WWII, because it won't turn into a world war.

The chances of Germany conquering and holding Europe is of the level of plausibillity of the unmentionable sea mammal, so is the conception that Germany has to become nazi or act like it without Hitler. Even OTL would have been called ASB in it it hadn't occured, in both aspects.
 
The chances of Germany conquering and holding Europe is of the level of plausibillity of the unmentionable sea mammal
To be fair, to win the second world war Germany does not need to conquer and hold Europe. If Germany ends up after the war with 1914 borders and Austria it would be a victory. I could see a Germany that causes (or is at least involved) in a war that ends up with a Germany that reclaims its old borders, includes Austria and (economicaly) dominates a large part of Eastern Europe. The problem is turning it into a world war though. As long as it is clear that Germany is not interested in annexing the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, all of Poland, etc I think a war could be winnable for Germany. Mind you, you need a far more competent leader than Hitler or most of the nazi's.
 
Here is my offering as to how this might have come to be. The Point of Departure would be Barbarossa. Based on a book by Vicktor Suvorov titled Icebreaker, that I only have read reviews of, he suggests that Stalin was planning to invade one week later, and if we assume that Stalin gets the jump in a preemptive attack them everything flows from there. One may debate the veracity or merits but the invasion of Poland in 1920 and the Winter War certainly support the possibility that Stalin was far more aggressive than history has settled on. Or perhaps it is just prudent, either way let us assume it is the USSR that invades in June.

First, I assume Soviet forces overrun the Wolf's Lair and kill Hitler and much of the ranking Nazis. Now the remaining government is badly disorganized under at best a pompous Goring or conniving Goebbels. This leadership would offer far less resistance to the Generals asserting authority, especially as Soviet forces push West. Second, I assume Soviet forces could make progress but that it likely stalls. The Germans are far batter at a fighting withdraw, perhaps the best at this complex task, they fall back on their logistics base, consolidate their lines, etc., gaining all the advantages of the defender while the Soviets stretch themselves in front of a lacking infrastructure, changes in railway gauges, etc., and must overcome the shortcoming in leadership from the purges, lack of motorization and so forth. Third, I assume hostilities in the West and Africa basically stop as the Germans shift everything East to defend against all out invasion.
Based on this I speculate that the Generals assume command and counter-attack to destroy Soviet forces and re-take at least East Prussia and Silesia if not the remainder of Poland and a possible eastern stalemate. At that point we have a “victorious” Germany without Hitler.

What ifs? Can Germany survive the USSR overtaking the oilfields and refinery complex in Romania? Would Churchill shift support or at least get more neutral with a Hitler-less Germany fighting the aggressor USSR? If for example the UK shipped oil to Germany would Stalin invade Persia? Would Soviet troops defect or at least never develop a strong morale to defend the USSR? Would Japan invade Siberia or still pursue war with the Western colonial powers and USA in the Pacific? Without Lend-Lease can the USSR survive a German counter thrust?

If I answer these more favorably to Germany’s favor, for example the Polish Government-in-exile joining a German, does Germany “liberate” Poland, the Baltic States, or the Ukraine? Does the prospect push Stalin to sue for peace lest the USSR unravel? If USSR survives, how powerful is it? Does the UK turn to the Pacific and if a war with Japan is it on greater equality between US and Commonwealth forces, and how does that shape post-war Pacific? Does US remain neutral, never develop the atomic bomb or pursue the UN and take a lead in post-war (Cold War) world? Is Europe a more conservative and German influenced collective on the path to something like the EU?

That is my house of assumptions and crystal ball questions. Sincerely, Michael.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
The challenge is to write a timeline where germany wins ww2 without the nazi party or Hitler with a government that is not anti-Jew or minorities and who can lead germany to become the leader of Europe
What is your definition of that ? The world wide war as well as what counts as a win in that ?
 
I'll take the challenge a bit of the way.

As IOTL the Weimar government were rearming and planning to do so beyond Versailles limits, its feasible to assume there would be an open confrontation at some point even if the Nazi's and Hitler just wasn't there. We might even see a Rhine-land occupation at the deepest depths of the French crisis. This may even deepen without the German rearmament. This must have fuelled growth in neighboring countries.

So, a nationalist Germany rearming (not crazily) and bend on overthrowing the Versailles and unite with east Prussia could be on a path to confrontation.
Now, to make this moderately rearming country into a winner in a major war is a bit of a stretch. I'll propose that the not to anti-Semitic policies makes the splitting of the atom a local German discovery that is covered up, because of this rearmaments focus. Lets assume the corridor crisis escalates into war in 1944 and Germany seals it with nuclear weapons in 1945. This being the first time when the rest of the world even learns that the Uranium atom can be split in a chain reaction.

I'm not sure that Germany would want so much beyond Versailles, but the war could be quite big before the Germans win it.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
I'll take the challenge a bit of the way.

As IOTL the Weimar government were rearming and planning to do so beyond Versailles limits, ...
There was a meeting at Geneva at 26.04.1932 between RK Brüning, PM MacDonald, Sir Londenderry and the US boys Norman Davis and Mr. Gibson about the Conference of disarmament in that the 'westeners' agreed on the german demands of 'equal rights'. The german proposal for a future german Reichswehr looked very much as what the Reichswehr was just at that moment planing and became the "Umbau-Plan" during summer '32 (ending of the IMCC-regulations on war materials, changing the enlistment-times away from the 12 years scheme, additional "militia" or kind of "national-guard" similar to swiss or USA).
In the follow-up talks planned 2 days later with the french Ms. Tardieu, who suddenly got a ... assumingly 'political cold' these concepts were approved by the Brits and US-boys.:eek:

Brüning had a schedule :
1st : get rid of the reparations, what he worked on since he took office in 1930
2nd : get rid of armament restriction, what he worked on from late 1931 on
3rd : get rid of Rheinland-restrictions, not on his agenda yet
4th : lets see what's then possible on the eastern borders

Without being toppled by amateurish v.Papen, he might have get an even better result from the Lausanne-conference WITH aalready then a declaration about 'equality of rights' in armament questions (was part of the OTL negotiation at Lausanne, but v.Papen fucked it up :mad:).

I would say it's well within plausibility, that he might got the GO for the Umbau-plan by late autumn '32, at what time the already compiled 3rd rearmament-programm would have started to kick in (with secret airforce but the planned for Carrier most likely put on the end of the list ;)).
Further plans of the Reichswehr, like the 21 division peace time army were considered, but as somthing not to worked on before 1936, more alike 1938 and only if things go lucky (Rheinland).

The 'traditional' nationalist were thinking in much longer terms, not years but decades to achieve their goals.

I'm not sure that Germany would want so much beyond Versailles, but the war could be quite big before the Germans win it.
As far as I would assume the 'nationalists' would have been happy with 1914 border restauration, maybe, under 'better' circumstances an "Anschluss" of Austria also and thean a slow and steady economic penetration of southeast europe, creating the "middle-europe" concept.
But that's it.
 
Germany "Wins" WWII Analogue or Germany is on the winning side?

The latter is easy.
Hitler fails to win round the owners of big businesses with his anti-Semitic rhetoric, the Nazi party remain a fringe movement, as do the communists despite support from the Soviet Union.

German politicians, citing the threat from the East, gain permission for a limited build up of their armed forces from Britain and France, and start to build a "Defensive" airforce and tracked "Scout vehicles", (not Tanks honest guv).
Soviet build ups continue as OTL.
Throughout late 30's, continue to pressure the Baltic states, Poland and Finland. This continues until Spring 1940 when Latvia, Lithuania and Estaonia are forced into accepting Soviet "Mutual assistance treaties" - a de facto annexation of the States into the Soviet Union. Finland and Poland Refuse the treaty and continue to resist Soviet Efforts.

Germany, in a secret deal with Poland, develops their airforce and armoured infantry along side Poland and sign a secret defence treaty against the Soviet Union.

Japan and the Soviet union sign mutual recognition treaties, giving the Soviets security against a Russian invasion in return for non-interference in China and South East Asia.

November 1940, after staging a series of provocation attacks on Finland, the Soviets invade. Small numbers of volunteers from across Europe travel to Finland to help fight against the Soviets, including Germans and Poles.

The Soviets are fought to a standstill and the resulting treaty of Vipuri saw the Soviets make some territorial gains but short of their original demands.

Reeling from this, and following a short period of reorganisation and purges, using supposed Polish complicity in "Cross border banditry and complicity in crimes against the peace loving people of the Soviet Union" The Soviets invade Poland in June 1941.

German troops in Polish uniforms are among those sent into action against the Soviets.
Britain and France immediately condemn the invasion and demand the Germany allow them transit in order to defend Poland under their treaty obligations. Germany "reluctantly" agrees on the condition that the limits on their armed forces, now seen as obsolete given the vast Soviet threat, (which Germany in no way played up, honest guv). Once this is given, the Polish Government formally requests that Germany help their neighbours leaving the British and French no choice but to accept Germany as allies against the Soviets. The British and French governments turn a convenient blind eye to the apparent German out manouvering of Versailles and subsequent treaties.
Finland requests help for defence which the Soviets use as a pretext to invade again.

December 1941 the Japanese commit slow but certain national suicide by attacking the Americans at Pearl Harbour along with the British and other European colonies in South East Asia.

A few years of back and forth fighting which spreads to Persia and the near east, see the Combined British, French, German and American forces do what Napoleon and Kaiser Wilhelm II failed to do and capture Moscow in March 1945.
The Soviet Union is broken up, the Eastern section, east of the Urals is left more or less to it's own devices. Siberia is taken under American occupation as part of their Pacific domain. (moves to annex it fully as West Alaska are voted down in congress - just once the sheer size is realised). Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, Crimea, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are given their independence. St Petersburg is made an international Free City, territory lost to Finland in the Treaty of Vipuri is restored. The rump of European Russia is recognised as an independent state of Asian Russia.

Because of their lack of Navy and far east territories, the Germans don't really get involved in the far east and in August 1945 the Japanese surrender after the cities of Kagoshima and Kyoto, and the small town of Wakkanai were destroyed by Atomic weapons dropped by the USAAF.

Germany sans Nazis on the winning side. :)
 
I agree that Germany without Hitler would not start the OTL world war two, but what if Uncle Joe did? What if a more moderate and competent right wing party takes power in the 1930s and the USSR is more expansionist?

France, Britain and Italy relax the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles to make Germany a bastion against communism. This includes allowing Germany a larger army, an air force and union with Austria if the Austrians agree to it in a plebiscite.

Meanwhile Stalin does not have the purges and invades Finland, the Baltic republics and Poland in 1939...
 
I agree that Germany without Hitler would not start the OTL world war two, but what if Uncle Joe did? What if a more moderate and competent right wing party takes power in the 1930s and the USSR is more expansionist?

France, Britain and Italy relax the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles to make Germany a bastion against communism. This includes allowing Germany a larger army, an air force and union with Austria if the Austrians agree to it in a plebiscite.

Meanwhile Stalin does not have the purges and invades Finland, the Baltic republics and Poland in 1939...

As mentioned Stalin is unlikely to take this risk, even if the USSR has a competent military command. Invading all of these countries would potentially trigger a worldwide coalition against the Soviets (a constant fear of Stalin's) and thus was not considered worth the risk. Without the German distraction, the USSR would not likely have expanded more than piecemeal.
 
As mentioned Stalin is unlikely to take this risk, even if the USSR has a competent military command. Invading all of these countries would potentially trigger a worldwide coalition against the Soviets (a constant fear of Stalin's) and thus was not considered worth the risk. Without the German distraction, the USSR would not likely have expanded more than piecemeal.
I thought someone would say that. So Stalin has to be as insane as Hitler or someone else who is willing to take risks is in power instead of Stalin. But no doubt that opens a completely different can of worms.
 
Someone other than Stalin, a militant internationalist who believed in spreading the revolution, someone more aggressive and less paranoid...

Assuming you're looking at the situation in Germany being one where most of the existing problems still occur but Hitler doesn't take advantage of them, you would have a de facto not-as- far-right coalition, old monarchists and centre- rightists and Hitler's rivals on the lunatic fringe,

facing a Trotskyist USSR that might easily believe that the time has come to export the Revolution; and poor bloody Poland in the middle as usual.
 
The challenge is to write a timeline where germany wins ww2 without the nazi party or Hitler with a government that is not anti-Jew or minorities and who can lead germany to become the leader of Europe

Easy. When the Bavarian police fire on the Nazi march, Hitler catches a slug in a bad place. The Nazis dissolve.

This has no significant effect until the 1930s.

Germany goes into a political crisis, as a semi-fascist political movement based on the Stahlhelm and DNVP becomes dominant on the right. But it never reaches the stage of OTL (where the NSDAP and KPD could block the formation of a government).

In the crisis year of 1932, the DNVP ruptures, with a militarist and anti-semitic faction (StahlPartei) calling ineffectively for a popular uprising, and a moderate faction (DeutschNationale Partei) joining a coalition government with the centrist parties (DVP, Zentrum, various minor parties), also with the tacit backing of the SPD, which would rather deal with the center-right than see the hard DNVP enter the government.

Over the next year, as the German economy recovers, the SP falls apart while the DNP gains strength, as does the DVP. The KPD gains ground from the SPD, which was divided over the quasi-deal with the Right. The SPD breaks up, with some joining the KPD, some forming a "pure" SPD, and a rump joining the government coalition. In the 1935 elections, the coalition is returned to power with an increased majority, and a DNP leader becomes Chancellor.

The coalition forces through a revised election law which forces the minor parties to consolidate; most are absorbed by the DNP. The SPD rump dissolves; the KPD absorbs the purist "SPD". With the KPD in control, the German Left becomes bolshevik - openly proclaiming their goal of revolution in alliance with the USSR. This in turn leads to repression by the DNP government, with the KPD going "underground".

By 1940, Germany has become a semi-authoritarian state, has mostly repudiated the Versailles limits on its armed forces, and is agitating for revanche in several areas. Germany particularly wants Danzig. Poland finally agrees to German annexation of Danzig in return for a defensive alliance against the USSR, because...

Stalin has come to power in the USSR, built up an enormous army, and is pushing for revanche in Finland, the Baltic states, Poland, and Bessarabia - with a larger plan of carrying war across Europe. Soviet intelligence shows that the Red Army is (on paper) stronger than the combined armies of Finland, the Baltic states, Poland, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Austria, Italy, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, and Albania.[1]

With no help from Germany, the Nationalist rebels lose the Spanish Civil War.

Japan goes on a militarist binge in China and the Pacific. Japan forms a secret alliance with USSR against China, Britain, and Germany (which is arming China).[2]

World War II breaks out in 1942, pitting the USSR and Japan against China, Britain, Germany, Italy, France, and nearly all the minor countries of Europe. Red Spain joins the USSR.

The Soviet onslaught rolls over all eastern Europe, much of Germany, and most of Italy, breaks into southern France and links up with Spain. Japan conquers SE Asia and most of the Pacific.

There are several nasty incidents in the Pacific between the U.S. and Japan. The U.S. becomes a major supplier of the European allies, and there are some notorious incidents of industrial sabotage by Reds in response. The U.S. enters the war in December 1943, but is almost entirely unprepared for ground war.

Over the next three years, the Allies beat back the Soviets and Japanese. The Red Army has vast numbers, but severe weaknesses that are only revealed in action. Germany rapidly mobilized and rearms, and inflicts major defeats on the Reds. Britain is fully engaged in SE Asia, both on sea and land. Britain fights in Spain (defending Portugal), and props up Italy, but its main contribution to the war in Europe is mainly airpower, especially heavy bombers. British raids against Soviet positions in occupied countries are effective, but cause a lot of collateral damage and resentment against Britain. France's contribution is mainly to survive, defeat Spain, and liberate north Italy. The U.S. contributes a lot of supplies, but is mainly engaged at sea in the Pacific.

Germany drives eastward, raising large numbers of auxiliary troops from Soviet PoWs and from the liberated nations of eastern Europe. By the end of 1944, over half of the "German" army is non-Germans.

In the Pacific War, Britain has managed to hold Burma. The Chinese army, with lavish Allied supplies and German advisers drives Japan out of south and central China. The U.S. annihilates the Japanese Navy in the Pacific and island-hops to the Phillipines; the British mop up the Indian Ocean and reconquer SE Asia. Smashed on all fronts, and facing invasion by immense numbers of Chinese troops who won't be deterred by "heavy" casualties, with their Soviet ally collapsing, Japan capitulates in early 1946.

However, a faction of die-hards with Soviet backing seizes control of Manchuria and Korea, and Xinjiang is a Soviet satellite.[3] American and Chinese forces invade these areas and press on into Soviet Asia.

At the same time, German forces capture Moscow and press on to the east. The USSR disintegrates. German and American forces meet in the Ural Mountains.

Germany is one of the winners in World War II. German forces are hailed as liberators throughout eastern Europe and even in Russia. The U.S. has done much, but its land forces never set foot in Europe. France was lucky to survive, as was Italy. Britain contributed slightly to the eastern Europe theater, and more to the Med, but is somewhat discredited by the collateral damage from its bomber campaigns.

Germany is unquestionably the number one power in Europe.

[1] I have a respectable source which states that by 1940, the USSR had 20,000 armored vehicles in service. That was more than the rest of the world combined. Most of these were junk, but numbers matter, and a lot of other nations' AFVs were weak or primitive.

[2] Starting in the 1920s, a fairly large German advisor mission operated in China with the KMT. The German-trained troops were the best in the KMT army - they won the only Chinese field victory of the war, at Taierchwang, and held off the Japanese for six months before Shanghai and Nanking. They were largely destroyed in the latter struggle, and that was a big reason why Chiang was so reluctant to commit his remaining forces to major battles. The Germans were finally withdrawn in IIRC 1941.

[3] In 1937-1944, Xinjiang was controlled by Sheng Shicai, a warlord closely allied with the USSR, who even proposed joining the USSR.
 
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