Mrstrategy
Banned
The challenge is to write a timeline where germany wins ww2 without the nazi party or Hitler with a government that is not anti-Jew or minorities and who can lead germany to become the leader of Europe
Of course... If you have a 1930's - 1940's Germany that is neither NAZI right-wing militaristic nor a police state that needs foreign adventures to keep their own population from asking questions... Then why do you need a world war, even one you can win. Couldn't Germany just become an economic and political powerhouse and get all their objectives accomplished by peaceful means, or just with a little bullying?
I think the main challenge in this scenario consists out of devising a way WWII starts without Germany, how it would get drawn in and how it will end up winning.
Seconded! There might be a war with Poland with Franch and British interference over the corridor, but that sort of thing will be remembered as the corridor crisis rather than WWII, because it won't turn into a world war.The very reason Germany started World War 2 is inherently tied up in Hitler's racial insanity. Pretty much any other German leader than Hitler (including practically all the Nazis) would have likely balked at Munich, much less gone for Poland. Without Hitler, you just don't get WW2 like OTL.
To be fair, to win the second world war Germany does not need to conquer and hold Europe. If Germany ends up after the war with 1914 borders and Austria it would be a victory. I could see a Germany that causes (or is at least involved) in a war that ends up with a Germany that reclaims its old borders, includes Austria and (economicaly) dominates a large part of Eastern Europe. The problem is turning it into a world war though. As long as it is clear that Germany is not interested in annexing the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, all of Poland, etc I think a war could be winnable for Germany. Mind you, you need a far more competent leader than Hitler or most of the nazi's.The chances of Germany conquering and holding Europe is of the level of plausibillity of the unmentionable sea mammal
What is your definition of that ? The world wide war as well as what counts as a win in that ?The challenge is to write a timeline where germany wins ww2 without the nazi party or Hitler with a government that is not anti-Jew or minorities and who can lead germany to become the leader of Europe
There was a meeting at Geneva at 26.04.1932 between RK Brüning, PM MacDonald, Sir Londenderry and the US boys Norman Davis and Mr. Gibson about the Conference of disarmament in that the 'westeners' agreed on the german demands of 'equal rights'. The german proposal for a future german Reichswehr looked very much as what the Reichswehr was just at that moment planing and became the "Umbau-Plan" during summer '32 (ending of the IMCC-regulations on war materials, changing the enlistment-times away from the 12 years scheme, additional "militia" or kind of "national-guard" similar to swiss or USA).I'll take the challenge a bit of the way.
As IOTL the Weimar government were rearming and planning to do so beyond Versailles limits, ...
As far as I would assume the 'nationalists' would have been happy with 1914 border restauration, maybe, under 'better' circumstances an "Anschluss" of Austria also and thean a slow and steady economic penetration of southeast europe, creating the "middle-europe" concept.I'm not sure that Germany would want so much beyond Versailles, but the war could be quite big before the Germans win it.
I agree that Germany without Hitler would not start the OTL world war two, but what if Uncle Joe did? What if a more moderate and competent right wing party takes power in the 1930s and the USSR is more expansionist?
France, Britain and Italy relax the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles to make Germany a bastion against communism. This includes allowing Germany a larger army, an air force and union with Austria if the Austrians agree to it in a plebiscite.
Meanwhile Stalin does not have the purges and invades Finland, the Baltic republics and Poland in 1939...
I thought someone would say that. So Stalin has to be as insane as Hitler or someone else who is willing to take risks is in power instead of Stalin. But no doubt that opens a completely different can of worms.As mentioned Stalin is unlikely to take this risk, even if the USSR has a competent military command. Invading all of these countries would potentially trigger a worldwide coalition against the Soviets (a constant fear of Stalin's) and thus was not considered worth the risk. Without the German distraction, the USSR would not likely have expanded more than piecemeal.
The challenge is to write a timeline where germany wins ww2 without the nazi party or Hitler with a government that is not anti-Jew or minorities and who can lead germany to become the leader of Europe