Germany wins WW1, starts WW2?

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Inhato

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Still, for Germany to recover economically and be able to maintain their hold on their vassal states they need to trade. The only powers in a position to do so are the British and Americans. This means that Germany needs to be open and trade with UK if she is to recover (the opposite is also true btw)
That's the whole point of Mittleuropa plan. Germany was to recover economically by ruthlessly plundering and exploiting Central Europe. Remember Congo and Herero? That's what was going to happen to areas under German control.
 
That's the whole point of Mittleuropa plan. Germany was to recover economically by ruthlessly plundering and exploiting Central Europe. Remember Congo and Herero? That's what was going to happen to areas under German control.

I doubt that that will work out in the long run, but did Wilhelmine Germany do too well in that regard?;)
 

Deleted member 1487

Yes, but the German leadership in 1918 is no longer Anglophile Bethmann Hollweg and his inept gang of diplomats, but a bunch of generals and politicians who know that Britain is Germany's worst enemy. They can't get at Britain's throat, but they'll make sure that Britain influence in continental affairs is neutralised. The British blockade 1914-19 most likely killed more German civilians than the Allied air war 1939-45 did, these victims will not be forgotten.

Are you really sure about that? The air raids cost over 1 million lives, the blockade, if you include disease related to malnutrition, higher infant mortality, and earlier die off ocf the elderly, was 800k.
 
That's the whole point of Mittleuropa plan. Germany was to recover economically by ruthlessly plundering and exploiting Central Europe. Remember Congo and Herero? That's what was going to happen to areas under German control.

The whole point of the Mitteleuropa plan was that the vassal states buy German goods and provide raw materials. Thus, they'd be exploited, but not like the Congo, which was only used to extract raw materials but not as an export market. They'd be exploited as the Soviet Union exploited the GDR.
 
Are you really sure about that? The air raids cost over 1 million lives, the blockade, if you include disease related to malnutrition, higher infant mortality, and earlier die off ocf the elderly, was 800k.

If I use 'revisionist' sources, the air raids are at 500,000 to 600,000 civilian casualties, including about 80,000 children, but may have been less if I look at 'politically correct' sources.

The WW1 blockade is ranging somewhere between 500,000 and 760,000 people killed, but that's more or less guesswork, because people didn't starve right away but rather died from diseases because they were weakened by malnutrition.
 
If I use 'revisionist' sources, the air raids are at 500,000 to 600,000 civilian casualties, including about 80,000 children, but may have been less if I look at 'politically correct' sources.

The WW1 blockade is ranging somewhere between 500,000 and 760,000 people killed, but that's more or less guesswork, because people didn't starve right away but rather died from diseases because they were weakened by malnutrition.


hi,

most "conservative" and "pro-allied"-numbers for ww2 air war is between 400-500k killed people, some nazisupporters claim 1 million...

how many people really died is difficulty to say, cause in the last year of the war (from summer 1944 on) a lot sourced had been lost. If you say between 450-600k killed people by the airwar you should be in the save region...

about the blocade, it is even more troublesome... first - exact numbers do not exist. Estimated numbers allways are just that - a guess.
but most informations i have about are between 600k and 1million, so the blocade caused the death of more civilians as the air war...

it was - as mentioned here - a violation of the rules of war, even more as the sub-war of the germans.
if germany had won the war, british admirals had been claimed as baby killers (they would been rightfully named this way, latest with this blocade the Royal Navy lost all honor it had gained in 400 years). But winning a war help a lot, so i suggest you really win your wars :)

but you really can say that the blocade in ww1 killed more civilians as ww2-airwar
 
If you can think about any scenario questions, please ask.

Germany annexes the balctic states? I suppose you meant they get turned into vassals, because I don`t remember the Germans had plans on outright annexing them.

Either way I don`t think a war is possible, if only because of war-weariness across the whole of Europe.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Germany annexes the balctic states? I suppose you meant they get turned into vassals, because I don`t remember the Germans had plans on outright annexing them.

Either way I don`t think a war is possible, if only because of war-weariness across the whole of Europe.

Germany did not plan outright annexation, but friendly vassal states However, once the Germans lose the Ukraine, they might do an outright annexation of the Baltic states. Germany was planning for Poland to semi-independent, but with the Kaiser as monarch. This is much like Finland for the Tsar.


I think Germany is unlikely to start WW2, because they will be dealing with so many day to day headaches in their sphere of influence. Britain will also be fairly happy with the situation, and will be busy running an empire. The dissatisfied losers of France, Italy, Russia and Ottomans are much more likely.

The USA will have spent huge amounts of money and maybe lives for basically nothing, and this will reinforce the isolationist in the USA.
 
There are two ways of looking at the Germany wins WWI scenario and this leading to WWII. Basically you could argue that History repeats itself and therefore this is simply a natural outcome, or you could take the view this is largely the product of the lazy and unimaginative.

If I may be permitted to flesh out slightly the concept that Wiking has lain, the Germans clearly will be a nation which came out on top after a significant and crippling war with a returning army victorious and yet weary. I can forsee a massive social change in the country.

It is simply beyond belief to assume that Germany can escape WWI without greater power to the Reichstag; the SPD will be a stronger force and Germany's economy will boom in the 20s. The German people will probably accept large areas of German speaking (and Czech, Slovene and Italian) AH without too much trouble which (while Catholic) will probably not be too thrilled with the idea of living under a powerful Kaiser.

In Eastern Europe Germany will find strong markets for its products in the Newly created nations. In order for Romania to be allowed to annex Transylvania they will almost certainly need to agree to some kind of improved treaty establishing rights to the Germans living there. If we assume mildly competent foreign policy from the German government it would be easier to keep the distrust of the different groups alive and kicking, forstalling any real "pan-Slavic" nationalism.

So with Germany in the Twenties controlling large swathes of population geared to German manufacturing it is clearly a huge boom period (which promotes economic develop which promotes left wing government for social services and benefits). Italian Civil war seems likely and a German influence in Turkey both plausibly large and important.

A very interesting question is that of a ravaged civil war (with probable famine and disease) in Russia between the Whites and the Reds. Germany would probably support the Whites to keep them in the game somewhat but with less desire at home for full out conflict for obvious reasons. So the question is under these circumstances could an angry and hungary for revenge Russia rise from the ashes to reclaim lost territory leading a second assault on the German Empire?

I just can't see it. We are talking not only about a war ravaged country whose external markets in all directions largely blocked by other powers. And a population of mostly ex-serfs. A more likely scenario would be a large poor and backwards country on the edge of Europe with Germany as quite literally the beating heart for a long time to come. I suppose one could try to factor in Frech and British assistance in rebuilding but this doesn't seem likely imo.

So will Germany start a new war for greater control of Eastern Europe? Again what is the point in that. There will be immigration of Germans to these lands like Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania etc. but not will some enforced government program of colonisation. Simply the increase in German population (there will be a baby boom) will encourage people to go to other countries, to find work and set up businesses etc. German engineering to improve infrastructure to move products and people too and fro. Clearly there will be conflict and nationalism but the truth is German already has as much power as it needs.
 
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