Germany victourious - De-Hitlerization after Hitlers death?

It would be helpful to imagine what the next generation of Nazi leaders would be like. You'd probably get a mixture of ever more purist zealots, and also amoral, career-minded technocrats that don't really believe in it but are happy to pay lip service to the ideology to get ahead. If the state managed to stagger on, power would probably ebb and flow between the two groups, depending on who has been see to have "victories" and "failures" in the mind of the people.

I think the German people are on the whole were more educated and less superstitious than the largely peasant North Korea, so attempts at a state religion would probably not penetrate the masses. That said, I can imagine pseudo-religious cults springing up. I always wondered whether you'd get a an even more ultranationalist group that wants more purity (brunettes aren't true Aryans etc...)
 
I think the German people are on the whole were more educated and less superstitious than the largely peasant North Korea, so attempts at a state religion would probably not penetrate the masses. That said, I can imagine pseudo-religious cults springing up. I always wondered whether you'd get a an even more ultranationalist group that wants more purity (brunettes aren't true Aryans etc...)

"A race of blonde, blue-eyed supermen! Ruled over by a dark-haired, brown-eyed Fuehrer."

But yeah. Assuming it lasts that long, which, again, is unlikely.
 
I obviously disagree with differentiating the two movements. They were both nation-statist movements which had paramilitary arms and the idea of national-statist empires which meant for the good of the Empire the peoples in the way were to be removed. Nazism was of course far more extreme than the Italian, Romanian, Croatian, Slovak, Phalangist, and Integralist variants of fascism and it gained controlled of what was still a potentially extremely powerful war machine. That's the primary difference, Germany's military potential far outweighed anything Italy would ever have in a war against first-tier powers.

Fascism and Nazism were both Statist and Nationalist, but that does not mean they were same. Nazism was a racial supremacist ideology while true Fascism rejected Racism. Austrofascism rejected anti-semitism all together. They were not the same thing.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Fascism and Nazism were both Statist and Nationalist, but that does not mean they were same. Nazism was a racial supremacist ideology while true Fascism rejected Racism. Austrofascism rejected anti-semitism all together. They were not the same thing.
"True" fascism rejected racism in theory only. It was nonetheless viciously, chauvinistically xenophobic and in practice embraced racism. Witness the Fascist atrocities in Libya and the borderline-obscene racism they used in their propaganda during the conquest of Abyssinia, wherein they set up a system that was the closest thing to apartheid until South Africa created its own in 1948. Slavs in the Italian hinterlands fared little better, and Mussolini did absolutely nothing to muzzle the radical (and vocal) anti-Semites within his own party, to say nothing of the Church's continued bilious preaching against "the deicide people." Also remember that Fascist Italy implemented anti-Semitic laws of its own accord; that whole "Hitler forced them to do it!" line is complete bunk.

"Austrofascism" is a more or less made-up phrase to make "Austrian clerical-authoritarianism" sound scarier. The Fatherland Front was many things, but fascist it was not.
 
"True" fascism rejected racism in theory only. It was nonetheless viciously, chauvinistically xenophobic and in practice embraced racism. Witness the Fascist atrocities in Libya and the borderline-obscene racism they used in their propaganda during the conquest of Abyssinia, wherein they set up a system that was the closest thing to apartheid until South Africa created its own in 1948. Slavs in the Italian hinterlands fared little better, and Mussolini did absolutely nothing to muzzle the radical (and vocal) anti-Semites within his own party, to say nothing of the Church's continued bilious preaching against "the deicide people."

"Austrofascism" is a more or less made-up phrase to make "Austrian clerical-authoritarianism" sound scarier. The Fatherland Front was many things, but fascist it was not.

Well in theory at least. It was xenophobic, but it was nonetheless different from National Socialism. Austrofascism is a legitimate term, considering that Dollfuss was a close confidant of Mussolini. Even if they were less about about the ideology then the authoritarian side of it. But they held more Fascist qualities then Horthy's Hungary.
 
Fascism and Nazism were both Statist and Nationalist, but that does not mean they were same. Nazism was a racial supremacist ideology while true Fascism rejected Racism. Austrofascism rejected anti-semitism all together. They were not the same thing.

Austro-fascism may have, but the Austrian DAP predated the German spinoff and sure the Hell was full of jew-hating extremists who thought the Jews were the root of all evil. Hitler's monstrous evil did not arise out of a vacuum.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Nor is fascism "Statist" in any real sense of the term; in every fascist regime there has been nothing but tension, uneasy collusion, and outright turf wars between the State apparatus and the Party. Fascists are only "statist" in as much as they want the State to obey and enforce their ideological dictates in places where the Party itself cannot.
 
Austro-fascism may have, but the Austrian DAP predated the German spinoff and sure the Hell was full of jew-hating extremists who thought the Jews were the root of all evil. Hitler's monstrous evil did not arise out of a vacuum.

Of course it didn't. It arose out of the smoldering ruins of a multi-national empire. Not to mention his own personal problems.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Well in theory at least. It was xenophobic, but it was nonetheless different from National Socialism.
That's dodgy; they weren't as racially-obsessed, but the Fascists never shied from using the phrase raza in propaganda, and the term's ubiquity only increased until the regime's final death.
Austrofascism is a legitimate term, considering that Dollfuss was a close confidant of Mussolini.
Chumminess does not mean anything. They were close because both Mussolini and Dollfuss were against German aims to annex Austria.
Even if they were less about about the ideology then the authoritarian side of it. But they held more Fascist qualities then Horthy's Hungary.
There was very little that was "fascist" about Dollfuss' Austria apart from the anti-Marxism and propaganda. It was a conservative authoritarian state interested in maintaining the status quo while exerting increased authority via a complicit clergy.

And I wouldn't call Horthy's Hungary fascist; again, it was a standard conservative authoritarian dictatorship. The only two countries where organic fascism has taken power on its own (more or less) are Italy and Germany.
 
And I wouldn't call Horthy's Hungary fascist; again, it was a standard conservative authoritarian dictatorship. The only two countries where organic fascism has taken power on its own are Italy and Germany.

I wasn't saying Horthy was a Fascist, I was stating that the Federal State was more Fascist then a counterpart authoritarian state.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I was stating that the Federal State was more Fascist then a counterpart authoritarian state.
"More fascist than" "fascist."

Austrians aping fascist propaganda does not at all make them "fascists." Apart from the propaganda, how was Austria "fascist?"
 

iddt3

Donor
To sum things up, Nazism = Hitler, communism =/= Stalin, Lenin, Mao or any one other figure. If you try to dehitlerize you completly destroy the ideological basis of the regime, and given that this is going to take place in the context of a generation raised in the Hitler youth, that seems... unlikely.
 
Interesting that no one has noticed that this is in the Pre-1900s category...


Anyway, I think that it would be impossible to de-hitlerize Germany quickly. Hitler was the sole face of the Nazi party and Germany. f he had won he would have been a god to them:(
 
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